November 19, 2007 9:30 AM
Evangelical to Catholic: my journey #4 - more thoughts on Mass
[Note: this is part of a continuing series chronicling my journey from evangelicalism to Catholicism. This series is not meant to cause division, but to reveal division already there - and to spark honest discussion. As an evangelical I've heard and continue to hear lots of criticism of the Catholic church but little self-examination on the Protestant side. So if my comments seem more directed towards questioning nonCatholic believers, that is why. Please, if you are new to this discussion, realize that a lot of ground has already been covered in the comments and read through those on previous entries before rehashing old news. I am receiving a lot of feedback that this has been an eye-opening and thought-provoking series for many believers on either side. If that is the case, then I consider my call as a writer fulfilled. I can only hope that each of us is examining his/her conscience for areas of stubbornness, presumption and pride.]
This is a continuation of Part 3: Barbara Goes to Mass - and it is long, so you will need to click at the bottom to read it all. Comments welcome!
It's Monday - I went to 7:00 Mass yesterday, then came home and went with my family to our usual service at the evangelical church we've been attending for three years. I love everything about the church. Of the many churches we've attended, it has been the one that feels so perfectly matched. It is filled with homeschooling families, and although we are not currently homeschooling, we did for many years and our family is deeply identified with the values of Christian homeschoolers. I think that really our presence in the public school system has been a calling that has to do with more than simply delegating my kids' education. As anyone who's been reading here for a while knows, it's really meant a lot of work for me :)
Not only is this church filled with families who share similar values, but the parking lot is filled with 12 and 15 passenger vans. That probably gives you some insight into why I feel so at home there - again, :) I love this church. I love the people who go there. While the church had a reputation for legalism before our family went there, under the leadership of a wonderful pastor, you could see the growth in grace and truth in a way that made me want to cry many Sundays. And it wasn't dependent on the pastor - when he left, people individually began to grow in trust and transparency and authenticity. I love this church and all the people in it. On Sunday I looked around and felt waves of joy that I enjoyed the privilege of being there. I thank God that He led us to this church home.
So how does this square with my identification as a Catholic?
I don't know. I cannot fathom what God is doing. I can only continue - as Elisabeth Elliot advises - to do the next thing. I am completely dependent on the grace and mercy of the Evangelicals I know to set aside any preconceived ideas or prejudice they have and to continue to love me as a Sister in Christ as I trust God and follow where He is leading me. To me - and I do believe to God - there is no incompatibility between Evangelicals and Catholics. How pleasing it would be to Him to see us stop this theological squabbling and just love Him to the best of our ability wherever He has placed us - setting an example of Christ like love and service for the many people who fill church pews on either side who are going through the motions and haven’t a clue what a relationship with God feels like. It happens on both sides (which I will post on later. So many rabbit trails to go down :)
Yes, the text is filled with smiles because I’m smiling. This is not an angst-ridden decision for me. It is one of great joy and gladness. I am not rejecting where I am or moving on because I am not happy where I am. I am happy – which is how I know that God must be in this. It wasn’t something I was looking for.
I suppose I could get depressed thinking about the rejection and misunderstanding that I face. But those of you who know my story know I don’t do things based on what other people think. God has given me a lot of freedom in that area. Through some painful experiences I’ve had to go through as a writer, He’s also helped me learn not to slip into paranoia because a few people decide not to like me, but to keep moving forward and expecting the best.
So now I look to Him to guide me through this uncharted territory and just do what I think He wants me to do – which is to renew my Catholic faith and to participate in the Sacraments while continuing to support my family in the church where God has planted us.
Uncharted territory – for me and for my fellow Evangelicals. For I do still identify as an Evangelical. I guess that just as there are Messianic Jews, I am an Evangelical Catholic. For truly it was through 20 years of being nurtured and educated in the Evangelical church that I could understand/appreciate the Catholic Church and grasp the fullness of the sacraments and the Mass.
So, yes – back to my impressions of the Mass. Again, I want to urge anyone who hates Catholicism or judges it as evil to go to a Mass before you criticize further. If you have memories of Mass from before you identified yourself as a Christian, go now and see through Christian eyes. Don’t judge the Mass by what you see around you, by whether you judge the people “saved” or “unsaved.” God is not calling me to the Catholic Church to judge the spiritual condition of the people there. He’s calling me because there’s something there He wants me to see.
And in obedience I go. Where I don’t understand, I ask Him to enlighten me. And He is faithful.
Does the Mass seem cold in some ways to me? At first glance, yes. I miss the enthusiastic singing – especially coming from a singing family, it does hurt to see how many Catholics don’t seem to enjoy worshiping God in song. I take this to God and ask Him to give me eyes to see what He wants me to see.
And I see the worship at Mass is more individual, private, contemplative. This is not something to be looked down on, but maybe something even Evangelicals – who do seem to take delight in looking down on Catholicism (what hubris! How that must hurt God to see that kind of harsh judgment!) – might glean a little from.
The Mass is not about my feelings or whether I like this part of that part. That is the smorgasbord mentality which has led to 30,000 Protestant denominations: Oh, we like this, this and this, but we don’t like that, so let’s find a new church – or we can even start one of our own!
For the first time in 20 years, I see that as an unhealthy response.
Knowing that it is not for me to judge or decide what I like/don’t like, but that since God has led me here I am called to ask Him when I don’t understand, I feel my Father take my hand and begin to show me. Instead of rejecting or arguing or trying to grasp intellectually, I am learning to listen. I feel more dependent on Him and more in his grace than ever before.
I love the celebration of Communion at Mass. I have always longed for that in the evangelical church. For a while Tripp and I attended a very conservative Episcopal church in Petaluma, California – St. John’s – where the brave pastor/father of 10 has now taken on the ECUSA leadership and is in some stage of revolt.
My memories of the Mass are in Latin. And the Episcopal liturgy is more beautiful than the Catholic in terms of the written/spoken prayers. As a writer, I notice that :) I sigh because the church closest to me is modern and I want a more old-fashioned one. But this journey is not about my wants and my evaluating and weighing and judging. It's about following where God takes me and learning to submit to His will.
No matter what I think is missing, the truth is that I feel something different in the Catholic Church than I’ve felt anywhere else. And that is the unity and continuity of the Body of Christ – as represented by the body of believers worldwide. As an evangelical, I was taught to be skeptical of ritual – a skepticism which often manifested as contempt. As a ritualistic church, of course, Catholicism came in for perhaps the greatest contempt.
And yet as a more mature evangelical – one who is allowing God to lift the veils of my misunderstanding and to heal the hardness of my heart – I see the humble movements of the priest as he cleans the chalice and folds the linens and I begin to cry at the beauty of it all. Knowing that priests throughout the ages have followed these traditions in obedience so that God could give me the gift of unity and continuity in our worship makes me feel loved and so connected to my Heavenly Father.
Did all priests do it perfectly? Were some riddled with sin? Were some just going through the motions? Do the people in the pews grasp the true significance?
Did God call me here to judge? Does God care what I think?
These questions only distract from the miracle God has performed in my heart, allowing me to see what I was blind to before. His great love displayed in the history and ritual of the church – carried out by imperfect humans for the benefit of other imperfect humans. Hmmmm…..sorta like everything that happened in the Bible, huh?
Though I know (vaguely) only one person several rows back from me and I leave without speaking to anyone, I am glowing when I leave Mass. With my family at our evangelical home, I enjoy everything as much as ever. I enjoy the singing and the Bible teaching and talking to my friends.
I don’t know what to say about this part of my life. I feel a little awkward because I don’t know who reads my blog and what people are saying. It seems stupid to just blurt out, “Oh, by the way, I’m a Catholic. Can we still be friends?” So I just talk to whoever wants to talk to me and leave everyone else to puzzle out how we will all handle this very strange situation. I am trusting God to reveal His will as time goes by. I am hoping that we can still be friends and that I am welcome.
All I can say is that becoming a Catholic has not detracted from my Christianity or my spiritual condition. It is making me feel more dependent on God’s guidance and grace than ever.
Posted in Catholicism | Permalink
Comments
Barbara, I came upon your blog via the blogs of Danielle Bean and Elizabeth Foss. Wow! I am a cradle catholic that is thoroughly enjoying following your journey. I too live in the Northern Virginia area and hope that some day our paths will cross. Your story is inspiring!
Posted by: Margaret | November 19, 2007 10:32 AM
I do admit to a slight prejudice against Catholicism, but I am waiting expectantly and with an open mind to hear the rest of your journey. I love that you follow where God's lead, and I am blessed to be a bystander in your journey.
~Leslie
Posted by: My Twenty Cents Keeps Moving | November 19, 2007 10:47 AM
Barbara, I've been reading your blog for ~ a year. As a fellow Montessorian, I thought you may be interested in knowing that Maria Montessori wrote a beautiful little book called "The Mass Explained to Children". It's a little dated (published in 1932, before Vatican 2), but gives a wonderfully written summary of the Mass and can still be ordered. Maria Montessori also developed a wonderful program called "The Catechesis of The Good Shepherd". This is a religion program for children that explains Catholicism in a Montessori classroom. Like all Montessori instruction, it is sensitive to a child's needs and is very hands-on, using child-size Mass objects. God bless you on your wonderful and exciting journey!
Posted by: Chris | November 19, 2007 11:01 AM
Barbara, I haven't been to your blog for several months (life got busy), but how awesome to read about your journey with the Church! I'm an adult convert to Catholicism myself. After I became a Christian, I went through this whole long "ordeal" trying to find my place amongst the thousands of denominations in the Christian faith and found myself investigating Catholicism. I am so very happy with my decision to become a Catholic. My heart goes out to you because I know you are and will continue to experience rejection (and worse) from others because you are even looking at the Catholic Church. I was not a public figure such as you when I went down this path, but I too had some seriously awful rejection experiences. So I will pray for you & your family as you go through this decision/journey. By the way, read everything you can get your hands on by Patrick Madrid and Scott Hahn. Bless you! Count on having a spot on my prayer list!!
Posted by: Andrea | November 19, 2007 11:07 AM
Barbara,
I've been reading your blog for a couple of weeks now, and have been loving your chronicle of how God has been working in your life. I am Catholic, my husband is Evangelical, and we've been involved in trying to celebrate both traditions in our lives for several years. I think that it's beautiful to be able to embrace the sacramentality of the Catholic church while also continuing to benefit from the aspects of Christianity that the Evangelical Church has been such a wonderful steward of (exploration of and reliance upon Scripture, and often a deeper understanding of what it means to be a community of believers). I would love to hear more about how your journey has influenced your family life. As a new mom myself, I can imagine that your newfound joy is something that you can't help but share with Tripp and the kids!
Posted by: Adele | November 19, 2007 11:25 AM
Gregorian chant.Traditional Catholic music is beautiful. Music at Mass should be sacred, and not secular. Our church has a strong tradition of music that is sacred,separate from the world, edifying to God, and appropriate to the Real Presence of Our Lord during Mass.It evokes awe and gives me a glimpse of Heaven. It keeps my focus on the reason I am at Mass, to worship the Lord, it keeps my focus upward, not of this world, the secular.
The Mass is offered, as the catechism says, to:
1. Adore God as Our Creator and Lord
2.To thank God for His many favors
3.To ask God to bestow His blessings on all men
4.To satisfy the justice of God for the sins committed against Him.
The Mass is not a service. Mass is a Sacrifice. It's not about me, it's about God.
I want fellowship, I hit the coffee and donuts in the parish hall!
Barbara, my children and I will continue to pray for you on your journey. God Bless you.
Posted by: Aine | November 19, 2007 11:41 AM
Aine -I hope you understood that that is exactly what God has been teaching me, though I don't have the context/language/explanation that you have supplied :)Thanks for filling in the blanks. That's what I am trying to say - it's not about me but about God.
And I love sacred music - there just isn't anything musical at 7:00 Mass :)
Posted by: barbara | November 19, 2007 11:51 AM
I too have a bias against the Catholic church on many different levels, but I am trying to stick with you until your story is told here, trying to follow it.
What I am wondering is, if in between or after this series, you could, in just a few lines, write what the driving force is, what the appeal is in the Catholic church. It might just be sleep deprived (a one year old and a three year old at home) me, but I am having trouble summarizing your reasons. I will say that I know some other people who have made this journey or the reverse and I have, so to speak, some marbles rolling around in my mind. I have asked them the same question and have found great meaning in their replies.
Thanks and God bless.
Posted by: Thia | November 19, 2007 12:10 PM
Barbara, as a convert myself, i know there is feeling of difference between the two, a service and the Mass. I am terrible at nuances in email!
I think, personally, for me it was the coming to the understanding that my focus at Mass was to be on God, the Eucharist, the worship of Him, and not an emphasis on me. Does that make sense? I wish I had your beautiful gift for words.
As many that will reject you, and I hope that number will be few, as many will embrace you.
And yes, 7:00 am is early for music, but I have you beat by a half hour. :o)
Posted by: Aine | November 19, 2007 12:20 PM
Barbara, I continue to look forward to your conversion story in the making! Your story reminds me of the conversion stories in the Patrick Madrid book series called: Surprised by Truth. You might want to find them.
I would surely love your parish! As the mother of 10, we are only one of two 15 passenger vans in the parking lot on a Sunday morning. I faced a certain amount of rejection on different levels from my own fellow Catholics, not to mention the average non-Christian or nominal Christian, when we started adding to our family of four to our present family of 10. These Catholics were the ones who rejected Humanae Vitae (the Papal Encyclical "Of Human Life" which rejected contraception) or the ones who were never taught the true teaching of the Church to be open to life. I guess what I am trying to say is that God is still calling all good Christians to stand up for the Truth, in season and out of season. That is what you are trying to do and I commend you on your courage. I continue to keep you in my prayers.
I just wanted to add one more thing, that is to try and listen to EWTN, the Eternal Word Television Network. It is found on t.v. on the Dish Network and sometimes through local providers. It is also found on Sirius Sattelite Radio at 160, on shortwave, on some local AM and FM stations, and on the internet at EWTN.com (click on Radio). I listen on Sattelite radio most of the day. Through EWTN radio, I feel connected to my fellow Catholic sisters and brothers in Christ. I think you will find that you are certainly NOT ALONE in your seeking the Truths of the Catholic faith. You would really like the Monday evening live show "The Journey Home" hosted by Marcus Grodi. He interviews former Protestants/Evangelicals and other faiths who journeyed home to the Catholic Church. My favorite is Women of Grace Live with Johnette Benkovich and Fr. Edmund Sylvia. Her show is on at 12 noon eastern time. After her show is the Daily Mass which is wonderful to listen to and to hear the daily Mass readings and the excellent homily.
May God bless you! Julie C.M.
Posted by: Julie C.M. | November 19, 2007 1:32 PM
Barbara,
I thought of you as I sat in Mass this past Sunday - we were both listening to the same Bible passages! That thought amazes me to think that no matter where one will attend Mass, the readings are the same!
Definitely the Latin rite has much more edifying music. I heard one priest recently say that after Vatican II, the Church had to "steal" hymns from the Protestants because there really were not that many English hymns for Catholics. There certainly are Catholic hymns now, but the beauty just does not compare to the old ones! The traditional music is part of the reason why so many young people are devoted to the Tridentine Latin Rite.
I would like to suggest attending daily Mass if it ever fits into your schedule. I have found much comfort over the years by daily Mass. It definitely is worth the sacrifice to me - I homeschool five children and this half-hour of peace in the morning is priceless! I depend on His grace each and every day! Usually the daily Mass attendees will have their own social activities - if that appeals to you.
Also, when you are traveling there usually is a Catholic Church nearby and most will have at least one Mass a day. It is amazing to see all of God's handiwork as I travel. There is a site that can tell you Mass times and I think it is for anywhere in the world. Although, I have only used it for the USA.
Thank-you for continuing to share your story. God is using you for a great purpose (as He does with all of us)and thank you for answering His call.
Posted by: Carolyn | November 19, 2007 1:57 PM
*The Mass is offered, as the catechism says, to:
............
4.To satisfy the justice of God for the sins committed against Him.*
Um, didn't Christ satisfy the justice of God once and for all by dying on the cross, rising from death and ascending into heaven to sit at the right hand of God?
Posted by: Susan in Elk Grove CA | November 19, 2007 2:00 PM
My family & I have been praying for you! We made the journey home to the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church a few years ago when I was studying to be ordained a deacon in my Baptist Church. Well, after studying to defend why I believed what I believed as a protestant I realized I couldn't be protestant. I became deep in history, and ceased to be protestant and recognized that God did indeed preserve his Church down through the ages.
Posted by: Richard | November 19, 2007 2:01 PM
I've been following this "conversion" (I'm not sure it's truly a conversion since the basic faith is the same whether your catholic or protestant) with some interest. What jumps out to me, that I hope would be considered by you and your family, is: When is it right to leave a church? My concern is not the joining, but the leaving. Leaving is something that we Americans have gotten quite good at.
Here in the US, at least for now, a discomfort with a church or an impulse to feel "at home" is what often people interpret as a calling to leave and go to a new church. A history of switching churches can point to a spiritual journey or to someone unwilling to commit to a church family past the time that the "romance" phase (which I would guess to be 1-5 years) with the church has passed.
I guess I'm skeptical about the spiritual journey because I've had a spiritual journey, and I've stayed in the same church (despite not always agreeing, and at times being tempted to leave) all my adult life because, well, you don't leave family, and you need to be an ambassador for Christ wherever you are.
If we want to grow as Christians we have to be a part of a body that we are committed to -- long term. We have to get far past the "dating phase" and into the long term phase. By long term I'm meaning 20-30 years.... this is like a family, like a marriage. We have to argue and forgive, love unconditionally (even our when our leaders let us down), and stay. We have to stay and speak up, within our own body, when we think that the church is moving in the wrong direction. It's hard for me to believe that we are to go to where the message God has given us might be more comfortable.
Anyway, I think it's an interesting discussion, and I hope to think through it more on my blog. However, I hope that you and your family pray continue to pray through and seek wise counsel on your next move.
Posted by: Deb | November 19, 2007 3:06 PM
Barbara,
I've enjoyed reading your blog! I LOVE your transparency.
I'm a non-denominational bible-believing Christian, so I've never really related to the idea of hating or rejecting others based upon their denominational preferences. I think every denomination has its flaws and its strong points.
My exposure to the Catholic church includes having a Catholic best friend when I was young, and visiting Vatican City about five years ago. I witnessed mass at St. Peters Cathedral, and it was indeed very beautiful and reverent. Any Christian of any denomination who has the chance to go to Italy should DEFINITELY visit Vatican City if at all possible...it is a life-changing experience!
That said, when it comes to choosing the church I will worship at regularly, I think theology IS very important. I want to make sure that my church is as biblically-grounded as is possible for an imperfect church to be. From what I know of Catholicism, some of (certainly not all or even most of) the theological points are concerning to me from a biblical perspective. I'd like to see you address this as you tell about your journey...is this not a concern for you?
Posted by: Erin | November 19, 2007 3:06 PM
Two lines in your discourse with regard to your Catholic conversion are red flags--for me, anyway.
"I am happy – which is how I know that God must be in this."
Is being "happy," a prerequisite for following God's will? I submit that your concept would be hard to prove from Scripture.
The other statement that you made was:
"I have never been interested in arguing theology."
Theology and doctrine are absolute essentials to the Christian faith. I'm not speaking about unhealthy shouting matches, but I am talking about knowing what you believe and why you believe it and having healthy conversations about it.
I may have missed it, but is your husband attending the Catholic Church with you? Is he feeling "led" in the same way that you are? If not, how do you reconcile the incongruity?
My husband was raised Catholic and his entire family is still Catholic. I'm not intimating that a Catholic can't be a Christian, but what I am saying is that the Church's doctrine for salvation is work-based, not based on by faith alone, by grace alone, through Christ alone. My husband didn't find that those tenants were the basis of the Catholic doctrine and he left the Catholic church after he became a believer.
Isn't it a bit disingenuous to say that the Catholic Church is doctrinally and theologically correct when part of that doctrine includes, but isn't limited to, praying to saints (which you parallel to asking others to pray for you), confessing one's sin to a priest for forgiveness which is contrary to Scripture and a myriad of other doctrine that is unbiblical. Time and space doesn't permit further examples. If you want to attend the Catholic Church, so be it, but Catholicism isn't akin to Christianity. It just isn't.
Cathy
Posted by: Cathy | November 19, 2007 3:10 PM
Deb -
you know, I feel like you didn't even read what I wrote since I made it clear that I wasn't stirred to leave by any sort of dissatisfaction with my current church.
While I don't mind printing negative comments, I really do resent it when people accuse me of stuff that I covered already in my lengthy post. I do not have the time to argue with people anyway - but particularly when they are arguing about stuff I already covered, it seems very inconsiderate to monopolize my time that way.
Cathy, I think your comment has a rude tone to it. When people say "Isn't it a bit disingenuous" it's just a snide way of chipping away at the credibility of someone without really saying anything (writers are skilled at seeing these subtexts). Actually, the doctrine does equate asking for intercession from the saint the same way you would ask for intercession from a friend on earth - just as I said. Read it for yourself.
I suggest that if you feel hostility toward me because of what I am revealing here and you want to rattle theological sabers that you first go to www.catholic.com to get the doctrine straight before you go on attack. If you have been reading here for some time and now think I no longer have any wisdom to share, then simply go find it elsewhere. If you are new here and coming just to argue, why spend your time in such a vain pursuit? Better to spend time with your children than arguing with someone you don't even know. I do particularly resent those who argue who obviously have not read what I said.
For your information, yes, my theology is changing. I think the faith alone issue is more complex than the 5S crowd makes it out to be. James has ALWAYS been my favorite chapter of the Bible - which made me laugh when I read last night that it was one of the books Luther wanted to throw out.
I am not going to turn MommyLife into a theology forum. My blog is about me and the things at any given time that have prominence in my life. Right now, this is it. But my focus is always shifting and sometimes I'll blog about pro-life issues for a week, or Down syndreom, or adoption, or Montessori, or the joys of raising teenagers, or whatever.
So when I really won't spend a lot of time on theology, except in a a very personal way. Whether you think it's disingenuous or not. And frankly that overbearing, judgmental attitude is one of the things I have had a hard time with in the Evangelical church, which sometimes seems composed of an awful lot of know-it-alls. People who will do snide things like put "conversion" in quotes.
sorry to go on a rant here. But it really amazes me that someone can bare her soul and make herself vulnerable and the 5S people can whoosh in to try to pick her bones. 1 Corinthians 13, folks. Hope someday you get it.
As to where my husband is, he is right where God wants him. He has little Catholicism in his background - though he has been known to do things like novenas to St Jude :) and he adores the ritual and liturgy of the Episcopal church. He has been to one Mass - by himself. When he suggested converting too, I asked him to wait until he goes through the Inquirers class. That it's not enough to do this for the sake of family unity - that he needs to hear from God for himself.
My children have already had to deal with the prejudiced remarks of kids their age. Though they've been raised as Christians, they've also been given enough breadth of vision to understand that children their age are reflections of their parents' values and so these kids know nothing really firsthand about Catholicism. And odds are some of their parents might not either.
And wouldn't you think that the patriarchialist Christians who are so concerned about what my husband is doing - a couple have sounded the alarm here - would be standing up and cheering that I am continuing to be submissive and going to church with my family?
But why am I accountable to people who don't know me but are obviously threatened by what I've said here anyway? While I take seriously the concerns of women with whom I've developed caring relationships through my blog,it seems pretty presumptuous for the Evangelical Police to appear suddenly on the scene to discredit me.
What does it really matter to you, after all? Why is it so threatening? I haven't questioned anyone's salvation or attacked anyone's theology here. Why so reactionary?
Posted by: barbara | November 19, 2007 3:49 PM
"Um, didn't Christ satisfy the justice of God once and for all by dying on the cross, rising from death and ascending into heaven to sit at the right hand of God?"
Yes...Mass isn't ANOTHER sacrifice...it is the same sacrifice re-presented.
Barbara- I am enjoying these posts very much.
Posted by: paigeu | November 19, 2007 3:50 PM
I'm praying for you and your family on your journey home to the one TRUE church. I am a cradle Catholic who left the church for five years only to realize that I left the one TRUE church and God called me home to him as a true believer, that is what Catholics are believers in Christ, no matter what others may say, we believe in God, we worship God, we don't pray or worship statues, saints, Mary, etc. As Catholics you just get used to non Catholics making up junk about Catholics and when you give them clear proof, I guarantee you they won't listen, the reason they won't is because you have to be searching for the truth to want to find and learn the truth and until you are searching nothing anyone says will matter. Barbara, right now you are open to the 'truth' and that is why you can see the Catholic church is really the one true church, it takes that kind of openness, and that is why I don't even bother responding to Catholic bashers anymore, its pointless, if they really wanted to know the truth, they would read all the stories at "the coming home network" or Catholic answers, Scott Hahn, Patrick Madrid, EWTN, the list goes on and on and on. Good luck Barbara, I'm praying for you and I'm happy for you and your family. Welcome Home!
Posted by: Tracy | November 19, 2007 4:06 PM
It is true that I don't know you. But, you enabled the comments after your first dissertation and invited comments. Do you only want comments that affirm your stance? From my perspective, there is nothing wrong with challenging someone's belief system or of having mine challenged. I would imagine that your blog is widely read and that those who read it give much credence to your views. Your blog may be about you, but it isn't written--or read--in a vacuum. Good grief, many of the comments state that the Catholic Church is the one true church." Is that "prejudicial (your word)" against those who don't believe that way?
It is also true that you don't know me. I am not a patriarchal Christian and the label is rather offputting. I believe that the Bible is clear about the head of the family, but in no way does that mean that women need be milquetoasts who don't have and/or state their opinion. To paint those who have questioned your husband's position with a broad brush seems a bit unfair, but this is your blog, about you, as you have stated.
I just wonder how you know God's thoughts on the matter. How do you know that, as you stated, "To me - and I do believe to God - there is no incompatibility between Evangelicals and Catholics?"
I asked honest questions and in no way do I have "hostility (your word)" toward you. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I suppose it is best that I not comment in the future.
Thanks for allowing me to comment.
Cathy
Posted by: Cathy | November 19, 2007 4:42 PM
I'm just amazed at reading this, as we attend an evanglical church, but over the last few months I have been feeling that I want to attend Mass at the local Catholic church just a few yards away from where I live...I really enjoy the fellowship of our evangelical church, my special needs children and I fit in well there, but I have been reading online about Catholicism and I feel so drawn to it.....I am nervous that my evangelical friends will react badly to this step I want to take with my faith, but know this shouldn't stop me. Thank you for saying so much of what I am currently feeling.
Posted by: Sue | November 19, 2007 4:43 PM
*The Mass is offered, as the catechism says, to: ............ 4.To satisfy the justice of God for the sins committed against Him.*Um, didn't Christ satisfy the justice of God once and for all by dying on the cross, rising from death and ascending into heaven to sit at the right hand of God?
Hi Susan. The person ahead of me responded to your question, but I'd like to chime in too. We Catholics don't re-sacrifice Jesus. In time, he died once. But God is not bound by time. In the mass, we are literally there. In the mass, we are at the Last Supper when Jesus says this is my body and blood broken for you. Take this, all of you, and eat it. Jesus is known in the breaking of the bread. He is literally present...body, blood, soul and divinity.
Think of it this way...just as the first Israelites ate the first passover lamb, so did the subsequent generations. The subsequent generations speak their liturgy in the present tense. It is not merely a commemoration. It was a powerful, covenant meal that they ate. And God took it very seriously. All his covenants involve eating...including this last, most glorious one.
In the old covenant, wrists would be cut and blood intermingled. In a marriage covenant, the greatest sign and sacrament occurs when the man and woman literally come together to make one flesh. In Communion, we do "commune" with Jesus. Our person and his person come together. It is the summit of the Christian life. The most intimate moment.
Do some people cheapen it? Yes. But that doesn't mean you throw it away. Spouses can cheapen sex by using each other for their own pleasure. When they engage in mutual self-giving, that is when the sacrament is most holy.
I think a big difference between Catholics and Protestants is that we Catholics don't just worship God in our heads and hearts. He could have made us angels, but he gave us bodies. We worship him body, soul and spirit. That's why we bow and cross ourselves and eat and dip our fingers in holy water. And smell the incense. It is a holistic approach to worshipping.
Hope that helps.
Posted by: Clare | November 19, 2007 4:53 PM
Tracy,
You equate the one TRUE church with Catholicism rather than the one TRUE church being made up of ALL those who have been cleansed and saved through the blood of Christ? This would be one important point of theological disagreement between you and me. I believe that all believers are members of the true church, regardless of what denomination they belong to.
To clarify, are the other Catholics reading here in agreement with Tracy's statements...by this, I mean, is this a Catholic teaching, or just Tracy's individual opinion?
I can see that some commenters do seem rather hostile. But Barbara, I think many of us are just seeking to understand better where you're coming from. Theological concerns are a big part of that, although I do understand if you'd rather not elaborate. Perhaps you're just trying to avoid the inevitable debates and banner-waving that would be sparked. I respect your willingness to share your journey with us.
Posted by: Erin | November 19, 2007 4:55 PM
hello, i LOVE your post, as i am renewing my faith and belonging in the catholic church, i never left in my heart...never attended elsewhere..
may i ask, as i guess a sheltered canadian, why do so many think of us as non christian, have bias against us...i've never encountered it, but then again i tend to avoid the hollier than thou crowd....in our hearts (my family) we love HIM and respect anyone who looks for HIM on their journey, which is taken with many steps, with some detours usually...
anyhow you can email me if you prefer to reply privately, i wish everyone to be respectful if they are to answer my question,not to insult my question
Good luck on your journey, which is lifelong
Posted by: celina | November 19, 2007 5:13 PM
A word of caution--Barbara is encouraging those questioning Catholicism to attend a mass, which is a good idea. However, if you are not Catholic DO NOT go up to receive the Eucharist (communion). To us it is much more than a 'wafer' and when the priest says "The body of Christ" we respond with "Amen" saying we fully agree that that is what we are taking (that it isn't simply a symbol-John 6). I am a cradle Catholic and have not attended other services but my husband is a convert who has gone to many churches. According to him in other services anyone and everyone gets communion (when it is offered)so that is why I wanted to give that warning. Don't let this discourage you though, plenty of Catholics do not go up to receive communion on any given Sunday for various reasons (ie: you won't be the only one left sitting/standing).
Also, there are books in the pews that show the readings for the day. At the beginning of the book is the Order of the Mass explaining what is happening and when to sit, kneel, etc. Once we get to the actual readings they are organized by date so simply look for the date if you wish to read along.
But again, I cannot stress enough--if you are not Catholic, do not go into the communion line.
Barbara, as a cradle Catholic I often take many tennants of the faith for granted. Thanks for remining me how beautiful it all truly is (we recently moved cross country and are in a parish that needs lots of reminding).
Posted by: Regina | November 19, 2007 5:19 PM
Barbara, thank you for your openness regarding the journey you are currently on. I have linked to your blog for over a year now and have been reading longer than that. You still stand as one of my absolute favorites because of the issues you address, the fair way you present those issues, and the wisdom you share. I have used your site countless times as a source of information when I am searching for a good book, an answer to a parenting question, and links to political news.
However, my jaw dropped when I read your response to Cathy. The same flaws you clearly point out against the arguments from liberals where being used in your comments to Cathy. I couldn't believe what I was reading. It didn't sound like you at all. Just because she doesn't agree, doesn't mean she doesn't understand. And could it be that she is guarding her heart from being misled as you've cautioned us to do by teaching us to recognize the signs of a cultish church, liberal rhetoric and hierarchial bull-dozing?
I am married to a man who was raised in the Catholic church, and I too went on a similar journey trying to find out what this was all about and where God wanted our family to be. So I get what you are going through and I even understand the conclusions you are coming to.
But, this comment you made to Cathy..."And frankly that overbearing, judgmental attitude is one of the things I have had a hard time with in the Evangelical church, which sometimes seems composed of an awful lot of know-it-alls." will stand out as the real reason you are being drawn toward the Catholic church and away from the Evangelical church. Please be careful, because you know as well as we do that that attitude exists in the Catholic church as well.
I am eager to read more of the story, but I would encourage you to stay true to the lessons you have learned about the spin in arguing, the lies of liberal rhetoric and the tactics of distracting from the issue at hand.
I look forward to reading you every morning while my children have their breakfast : )
Posted by: Kristin | November 19, 2007 5:40 PM
This has been a very interesting series for me, since I have been struggling with the concept of a "true" church recently. Seems like everyone (speaking in denominational/ church terms here) believes that their interpretation of Christianity is the only correct one. If your church separates kids from adults it's not really Christian, if you do confession you're not really Christian, if you sprinkle instead of dunk, etc., etc. etc.
Is it just a human condition that we want assurance that we're doing the right thing? Attending the right place? Shouldn't our salvation through belief in God's grace of sending his Son be enough for us? And the "hows" of our living out our faith be secondary to that?
Posted by: Lori | November 19, 2007 5:43 PM
Most of my comments to your blog thIS past week or so has mostly been defending the theology of the RC Church. Which has been fun and I hope I did it in a respectful way. It does seem though that debating theology is rather pointless. When you read the Gospel you either read it as a Catholic or you read it as a protestant. I simply can't fathom interpreting scripture the way an evangelical does at this point in my life. And yet it is just the fact that I am so highly devoted to one perspective of Christian theology that any other perspective seems alien and weird. I am sure that if I were a devout Evangelical that the Gospel would only seem to make sense read through those eyes.
I do occasionally attend a non-catholic bible study and often keep my mouth shut due to a scripture passage being read about that only makes sense to me within the catholic context. Other times the scripture study is enlightening because the protestants tend to emphasize on different parts of being in the Body and I have been inspired by the emphasis on reaching out the the community.
I very much look forward to hearing you talk more about how a person can be an evangelical catholic without denying anything in the Creed. I would love to have a better relationship with other non-catholic Christians but often times I feel like I have to play pretend so I don't accidentally challenge anyone or put them on the defensive.
I had a faith crisis for a while that I am now just at the tail end of. I can finally see myself starting to come out of it. For a while my spirituality was bogged down in negativity and I was having a hard time worshiping and praying. I discovered that I let other peoples opinions have too much influence over me. My anger at them turned into anger at God...because somehow I made them representatives of God which surely they are not. That is when I became to be more aware of why the bible warns against having mediators. They are not talking about having friendships or deep respect for others (or honoring saints), but of putting other people on such a high pedastal that you look to them for direction instead of to the Holy Spirits leading.
All anybody can ever do is plant a seed. Only God can make it grow. I am trying to remember that when I talk to people and when they talk to me. If they have advice for me I listen patiently but I remind myself that it is okay to disagree. If I pray pray pray God will not fail me in leading me in the direction he wants me to go. I don't need to follow another person.
Anyway...that was more personal than I originally intended. I am half tempted to make it anonymous but I will try and be brave. :)
Posted by: paigeu | November 19, 2007 5:45 PM
If anything, I wish Barbara's testimony would reveal to "dissenters" that God leads us down different looking paths (although they all culminate with Jesus). With the Bible as our foundation, and the Holy Spirit as our Counselor, it is o.k for our walks to look a little different.
To doubt Barbara's walk with God simply because she is moving into a new way of seeing things is very, very small minded. *GOD* is not a small God.
Posted by: bonnie | November 19, 2007 6:14 PM
Erin,
Yes, it is true what many of my Protestant friends say. The term Catholic Church does translate to "Universal Church". But it DOES NOT translate to Universal Churches. I believe that Christ founded one Church, on one leader, for all people, for all time. I pray often, just as Jesus did, that we become one. One in the Church founded by Christ, not in any church founded by man. Man cannot found a "church" and consider it part of the Universal Church, especially "churches" that do not submit to the Universal Church founded by Christ. Just because I call myself a millionaire does not make me one. Just because an organization founded by man calls itself a "church" does not make it one. Christ founded ONE Church for ALL mankind.
Posted by: Tracy | November 19, 2007 6:35 PM
The word "catholic" means universal. Jesus created one universal church for all of mankind. The Catholic Church was established by Jesus with his words spoken in Matthew 16. Jesus asked his disciples "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" The disciples then offered various answers - "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." But the question that Jesus then asked was crucial: "But who do you say that I am?"
The answer provided by Simon Peter set in motion the formation of the Catholic Church by Jesus. "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." With this answer, Jesus established the Catholic Church with Simon Peter designated the first Pope.
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Many try to imply that it was Peter's faith on which Jesus established the Church. But closer examination of the words of Jesus reveal that the selection was of divine nature.
"For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father." His knowledge of Jesus was not the reason for Peter's confession to the true identity but it was the fact that it had been revealed to him by God. In the words of Jesus gives Peter his new name - "The Rock". A foundation on which his Church will be built.
Many separated from the Catholic Church cling to the notion that the Church was built on the faith of Peter and not him as a man as justification for their position. Unfortunately, their understanding is incorrect.
The bible is full of references to the need for respect of authority. It is also full of references for the need for unity. In one parable Jesus is explaining how he could not be of Satanic origin (Mark 3:22), "How can Satan drive out Satan?" In this parable he points out the importance of leadership. "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand." Throughout the scripture we always see - One God, One Son, One Holy Spirit, One Church.
The Church today has become a free enterprise operation. If you can access the Internet you can be ordained in some church. The reformation began a splintering of the Church - in so many words, a kingdom divided.
It is much easier to understand Peter's role of leadership by reading Acts. He is clearly the leader of the Church. One such example, there are others, is Acts 15:6 where Peter addressing the other Apostles clearly states his leadership role: "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth..."
Around or about 45 AD, Peter went to Rome and from there lead the Catholic Church. As of today, there have been 263 Popes in direct succession to Peter. The position of Pope was established by Christ and the office has been maintained in an apostolic manner since the time of Christ. Although the Church has fragmented since the time of Christ with various leadership centers emerging, the apostolic line of succession in the Church is seated in Rome until this very day. Many throughout time have tried to rationalize away and deny the authority and structure of the Church as established by Jesus. In my heart I know that Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus and has maintained a clear line of apostolic leadership to this very day. The Church has celebrated the sacraments and worshiped the Lord in essentially the same way since the time of Christ.
Every Church suffers occasionally because of the weaknesses of human nature. But I believe that regardless of temporary problems experienced by the Church, abandoning the Catholic Faith is not an option. Jesus was more forgiving and understanding of human nature. When Jesus was arrested Judas had betrayed Him, Peter denied him three times, and the remaining apostles ran away. If Jesus supported and anointed their apostolic role after some of their human failings, I can't imagine abandoning my faith for human shortcomings. After all, your faith is in the Church established by Jesus, not in any person involved in the Church. Of course problems in the Church must be addressed and corrected, but the faith and Church established by Jesus can never be denied.
Posted by: Tracy | November 19, 2007 6:38 PM
Dear Barbara,
I'm a long-time fan and reader who has been following your story with interest. I was raised in a cultish church that was very anti-Catholic. I have rejected that brainwashing and have attempted to do a little study myself the last few years. I admire many things about the Catholic church and some of its followers. However, there are a few issues that cause me concern that I was wondering if you would address.
One concern is with the Catholic church's claim that it's the only true Church. My own cultish church from my youth claimed to be the only church... well at least the "best" church, the most "Bible-believing" etc. So this kind of claim raises red flags for me.
It was very freeing and amazing when I came to believe that the church isn't an institution- it's all those people who truly belong to Him. Now the sheep and the goats stuff makes sense to me. So the Catholic Church claim of being the only and true church hits me the wrong way. What about those of us who are Christians who don't believe that about the Catholic Church? Are we considered true Christians?
I also have come to believe that true faith is so simple that a child can believe. It makes me think of my daughter's Bible verse she's learning for school: Matt. 18:3 And He said, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
I love what you wrote in another part:
"My faith has always felt first and foremost to me like the trust of a little girl for her father."
I love this because I didn't grow up with a father and I've come to understand God this way the last couple of years.
Then in your comment you say this:
"I think the faith alone issue is more complex than the 5S crowd makes it out to be."
I would be curious to know what you mean by that and how it jives with your first statement.
I was also concerned by the same comment that concerned Kristin:
"And frankly that overbearing, judgmental attitude is one of the things I have had a hard time with in the Evangelical church, which sometimes seems composed of an awful lot of know-it-alls."
I'm curious about you opinion on what constitutes being judgmental and harsh? Can someone disagree with the Catholic Church and not be considered judgmental and harsh?
Finally I'm concerned with the Catholic Church's claim that grace is found through the Sacraments. My understanding is that grace is unmerited favor shown to us by God by sending Jesus to die on the Cross for our sins. If we are saved by grace through faith- then wouldn't the Catholic interpretation of this be that we are saved (at least in part) through the Sacraments? And wouldn't that be works?
I'm one of those people who respect your faith and character. I watched a mass on TV the other night and thought the homily was beautiful. There is much I find appealing in the Catholic Church. My best friend is Catholic and I asked quite a while ago to go to Mass with her when I am in town again. But I am one of those who has questions while understanding that I am not you and not on your journey.
Truly wishing you blessings and the best!
Posted by: Anne | November 19, 2007 7:45 PM
Barbara:
Thank you so much for being open about your journey. You are very brave, considering the hits you are taking.
Look folks - there's a lot of theology that could be debated, and I doubt this blog is the place to do it. I'd just ask everyone who is considering on questioning Barbara think about this first:
Some who are questioning seem to be stating unequivocally that Christ cannot be found in the Catholic Church.
Barbara and other Catholics commenting here are saying they do find Christ in Catholic practices and spirituality.
It might be best if folks accept that - even if you don't want to, even if someone close to you didn't have such experiences in the Catholic Church - accept that many, many people find deep intimacy with Christ within the context of Catholicism. They find its teachings and practices, not barriers, but doors.
You may not. Some people do.
It is fruitless to argue with the experience of others on that score.
It's better to just listen and learn, IMHO
Posted by: Elaine | November 19, 2007 7:48 PM
I actually did read your rather lengthy blog entries. I was under the misunderstanding that you were opening this up for discussion -- ie that you were still considering different view points, or at least respecting them. I intended in no way for my comments to be rude, and I'm sorry that you see them that way. I have as much respect for your time as I do any other person's time. My comments were directed toward the discussion of switching churches/denominations/religions/whatever -- not you. Although you are claiming to be "open" about this. To me, "being open" means being willing to consider other view points.
From reading your blog entries, I can't see any evidence that you have thought through this on a scriptural level at all. Based upon what I've read, you're making the decision based on experience and feelings. That is very shaky ground.
Obviously, if you're heading to another church there's something in your current church that isn't meeting your needs. And, if you follow enough people who try to do the 2-church thing, I bet you'll find they can't maintain a relationship with and proper commitment to both. Unless you've got about 24 extra hours in your day.
Honestly, your reaction of defensiveness to anyone who raises even a question or concern about this topic shows that you are not as confident as you are putting forth. Up until I read the responses to my and Cathy's comments, I really thought this was a discussion. But from your reaction, it appears that it is for your own confirmation.
I would hope that anyone who is leaving a particular church and going to a new one (especially one that has some theologically controversial points) would turn to scripture and prayer for wisdom, not feelings when walking into a building. Community is built with relationship, relationships are build with time, time requires staying. And, I hope that the younger, less mature Christians who read your blog are learning exactly what kind of study, thought and prayer need to go into what should be a very rare switching of churches.
Posted by: deb | November 19, 2007 8:00 PM
Erin,
It is true that we call the Catholic church the one true Church, often with a capital "C". This is not meant to be a slam against other Christian denominations but instead is meant to signify that the Catholic Church was started by Jesus himself when he said "Upon this Rock I will build my Church". This is another one of those areas where Catholics and Protestants just don't speak the same language. Now, you may also argue that Jesus did not build a Church with a capital "C" when he gave Peter the keys, but we believe that he did.
I am a Catholic convert and I have spoken both languages. It's amazing to me how much of this debate stems from different meanings of the same words. If a Catholic "prays" to St. Anthony, they are not "praying" in the Protestant sense. They just aren't. There is exhaustive documentation of this fact. If we call Mary "Holy", we are not equating her with God. We just aren't. SO much of the hurt and anger, from the Catholic side, stems from many Protestant's refusal to understand the meaning before they condemn the practice. That's all most Catholics are looking for- just do some research on what the Church stands for before you condemn her practices... or even worse, those of us who practice it. And, of course, I'm not directing that last part to you, Erin, only the answer to your question.
The fundamental difference between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians is whether or not the Bible is the sole source of Jesus's teaching and in what context it was to be used to teach Jesus's message. I love theological debate and would love to sit and tell you what the Catholic opinion is on this. But in the end it doesn't matter. Thanks to Mr. Google every bit of it is out there if you want to find it out.
I've sat on each side of the pew and I can tell you that it's not easy being Catholic if you have a network of Protestant friends and family. For that reason alone, give us converts kudos for following where we feel we are being led. To become a Catholic is a long and time consuming process. It would have been so much easier for every one of us to have just gone to the corner church and started attending services. It's hard to submit yourself to the teachings of the Church and accept all of her wisdom. We don't do this Catholic-thing because it's easy, we do it because it's what we believe is God's plan for us.
Funny side note- My husband's family is Jewish by heritage but hadn't practiced in four generations. Yet when we first started feeling God calling us we were open to wherever he wanted us to go. In fact, we explored Judaism for awhile. When I told my Mother that we were joining the Catholic faith she quipped, "Well at least you aren't becoming Jewish!". Seriously, Catholic was only one step ahead of not believing that Jesus was Son of God! She's been trying to "save" me ever since. Most recently she asked me if we had checked our Mormonism since they also have big families (we do too). In other words, ANYTHING other than Catholicism!
Posted by: Angela | November 19, 2007 8:43 PM
Dear Barbara,
Thank you for sharing your spiritual journey so transparently with us. I rejoice with you for the experience and journey that you personally are having with God at the center of it, regardless of all of the issues that are necessarily brought about by man surrounding it.
As you open yourself more to God's voice speaking to you individually, and as you open your heart to worship in more of the amazingly varied ways that we are created to worship (without discarding the "old" as no longer valid!), it's no wonder that you feel more spiritual fullness.
I myself am an evangelical, by the way, with some familiarity and experience with the Catholic church. (I was actually baptized as an infant in a Catholic church.)
Anytime and anywhere I experience and witness true worship, empowered by the Holy Spirit and in accordance with scripture, *even if it is not familiar to me and it makes me slightly uncomfortable*, there is joy in my spirit and a deep longing to be in it. We are created to worship, and so much more fully than any of us do, hemmed in by tradition as we tend to be! Scripture uses so many different words for praise and worship-- halal, yadah, towdah, shabach, barak, zamar, shacah.... All are designed by and pleasing to God. We humans, however, grab hold of those that we believe are proper and right, and reject the others and anyone who would practice them. Praise with loud shouting, praise with the waving of the hands, praise by kneeling... yeah, IT'S ALL IN THERE!
While I do not forsee myself ever joining the Catholic church, as a Christian, I do appreciate the truth and beauty of some of the words of mass and long for the style of worship more common in a mass to be included in my corporate worship experience more often. I can enjoy some Catholic worship as I remain an evangelical in official membership.(As a Christian ALREADY, I can see that. I'm not sure I ever would have found the Lord inside the Catholic church, however. Evangelism and accessible presentation of the Gospel are not exactly strong suits of the Catholic church, but that's another issue.)
Anyway, I rejoice with you in this broadening of your personal worship and relationship. I also rejoice that God is at work in and through you, because, whatever it is, I know that His purposes are good. I can't help but think that he is using or preparing to use you in the Church toward the same kind of bridge-building and reconciliation that he led you to inspire politically. Reaching the Catholics from the Evangelical Church and Vice-Versa might be too long a book title, though ; ). We all need some of the truth and shades of Christian religious expression that others are clutching. Maybe in the lives of many, maybe in just one life, but His desire is to use us for His good purposes, so I trust that that is what he is doing.
I'm very sad at some of the Evangelical reactions you are receiving, though they are understandable. There is no official evangelical doctrine that says those in the Catholic church are necessarily unsaved, though there are some who choose to hold the belief.
I am also very sad that some Catholics seem to be missing or ignoring your point that you have not finally, "seen the light," and joined the One true church. *In that, however, they ARE supported by their church doctrine.* (Thanks for referencing catholic.com, btw.) The "exceptions" to the rule that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church do not seem to include belonging to an evangelical church. Rather, we belong to the group that, "knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."
Barbara, how do you deal with this? (I ask this not accusingly or at all in judgment-- all of my rejoicing with you is very sincere-- but earnestly.) Can you hold to this doctrine as a full member of the Catholic church?
God bless you.
Posted by: Marian | November 19, 2007 9:37 PM
One more thought...
I didn't put "conversion" in quotes to be snide. I actually did it because I don't consider switching from protestant to catholic as a conversion, as I put in the parentheses following it. In other words, I don't think that the act of changing faiths is the issue, because at its core it's the same faith. The issue I expressed concern about is switching churches and allowing a culture that lacks commitment to slip into the body of Christ by not staying put where a person is, and switching churches based on experience and feelings. And, again, I expressed concern about the issue.
The personal attacks really came from you, not from me. I don't want to waste time arguing, and, honestly, it doesn't matter to my life where you go to church. However, it does break my heart to see the body of Christ in America ready to church hop every couple years, and, ultimately that does affect my life because it produces an unhealthy body.
As someone else said, you are not blogging in a vacuum, which is why I felt the need to post. People are reading this. They are learning something, and hopefully, it's something that will lead to spiritual growth.
You read into my comments judgment that was not intended, and attributed attitudes that were not there. I hope this can give you cause for prayer and reflection -- why you would assume something negative when it was simply an observation.
Posted by: deb | November 19, 2007 9:54 PM
(anon just in case my friends are reading here). Hi Barbara, I was surprised to hear you are considering converting, but I am not here to judge (nor do I have a right to that). :) I only want to know why, and will find out as you share. I want to tell you my story. I was born and raised Catholic for most of my childhood, went to Catholic church, loved CCD and all that. I loved God, but in all those years, I was never told that I could "be saved" by receiving Jesus' sacrifice and salvation-as a choice (John 3:16). When I found out, it was not from the Catholic church, and I converted to evangelical. I left behind all Catholic rituals and never looked back. (All of my relatives are Catholic and told me I am going to hell because only Catholics go to heaven. I can't imagine all Catholics believe that though. Only now that I am an adult do they accept and respect my relationship with God). I do have warm memories of the Catholic church but cannot imagine my life without this *relationship* I have with Jesus- it is different than just loving Him as before. Since then, I have encountered numerous Catholics, several who met evangelicals and chose to receive Jesus' gift of salvation and had given their lives to him. But there was much conflict and confusion and inner turmoil in those who were saved because they could not reconcile their choice to be born again and still worship Mary and the Saints and other big little things. I have several Catholic friends, and I come away discouraged after spending time with their church friends because of the destructive behavior and topics they speak of and even gloat about, it is just like being with non-Christians, and I have seen this in various circles. (Hopefully this is secluded to my own limited experience). I believe that your relationship with God is all that really matters. I am praying for you as you seek what He has for you, and I'll keep reading here whether you are Catholic or evangelical. Either way, you are a blessing to me and my family! Thank you.
Posted by: anon | November 19, 2007 10:56 PM
Just some clarifications:
Marian- the most basic requirements for being "saved" according to Catholic theology is to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and to die without unrepentant mortal sin. (mortal sin is a very very serious sin that was committed with full knowledge and with full intent of the will).
There are other forms of baptism besides water baptism...so this theology doesn't even mean that you are damned if you are unbaptized by water. It is considered a baptism by desire if you have sincerely desired salvation (this would probably fit under the protestant idea of saying a "sinners prayer" as an initiation into the Christian life...assuming it is said sincerely and followed by some attempt to live a Christian life and repent of past sins).
The point of the Church isn't so much because we can't be saved without the specific sacraments that the Church provides...but because it is with those Sacraments that we are strengthened in our fight against evil and moved towards holiness.
A Sacrament is NOT a "work". It is a physical symbol of grace. For instance..while a baptism is just water on the head in the physical world...in the spiritual world it is salvific grace being poured out. The point of the baptism isn't because water is needed to save us, but because God wanted us to have a physical ritual to better experience His grace.
Every time we receive a Sacrament we are inviting God to pour His grace out upon us.
Posted by: paigeu | November 20, 2007 12:08 AM
Dear Barbara,
Because of things going on in my life I haven't been able to comment much here, but I did subscribe to your email feed which you so generously set up after I asked, and I have been following all of your posts. I just wanted to comment and say again how happy I am for you that you are following where God leads, wherever it may be.
Also, Regina (or any other Catholics here), is it ok for a non-Catholic who believes in real presence to accept communion at Mass? My dh and I absolutely agree with the Catholic church's stance on this, but we ourselves are not Catholic. I haven't been to Mass in many years, but my family is Catholic so I thought it would be good to have this clarified in case they ever invite us to go with them.
Posted by: Michelle Potter | November 20, 2007 1:04 AM
quotes by paigeu:
"the most basic requirements for being "saved" according to Catholic theology is to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and to die without unrepentant mortal sin."
"A Sacrament is NOT a "work". It is a physical symbol of grace."
Don't these two statements seem to contradict each other? Being baptized and repenting before you die of a specific sin are works, are they not?
Posted by: Anne | November 20, 2007 7:09 AM
Anne-
That depends entirely on how you define work...I suppose. you don't need to be particularly virtuous or "good" to receive a Sacrament...you just have to be repentant and sincere in faith. Isn't that the most basic requirement for salvation within the protestant Churches? I was always told in these Churches that to be saved I must say a sinners prayer with sincerity. How is receiving a sacrament more of a "work" than saying a prayer of repentance or a declaration of faith?
Lets face it...both Catholics and Protestants require that you do some kind of work to be saved. Whether that is a baptism, or a prayer...what is really the difference? Catholics will say that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith and works. If protestant is being honest they would admit to believing the same thing....you are saved BY grace but THROUGH the ACT of repentance and the ACT of a declaration of faith. If some kind of work was not required for salvation then we wouldn't need to evangelize because everyone on the planet would have there get into heaven free card. It is because salvation requires that we ACKNOWLEDGE and INVITE grace into our lives that we must preach to the nations.
In both evangelical and catholic theology even the most hardened sinner can have hope of salvation if they show whatever repentance they are capable of before their death. So if Saddam Hussein's last thought before he was hung was "God forgive me" then a Catholic would acknowledge that perhaps there is hope that God showed mercy on him despite the evil he did.
I can't help but think that this is becoming a semantics game. Salvation theology isn't all that dissimilar between Catholics and Protestants but terminology such as "works" and "faith alone" seem to add debate to an issue where one isn't really necessary...because when it comes right down to it we both believe repentance and acknowledgment of grace is the most basic requirements for salvation.
Posted by: paigeu | November 20, 2007 9:51 AM
BUT.....
I didn't want to leave off on the last post I did because I don't want to be guilty of downplaying the purpose of the sacraments so please allow me to continue.
Yes...the most basic act of faith and repentance may be enough for salvation particularly if you are on your death bed ... but most of us don't become Christians on our death bed. Most of us have a lot of life left to live after our conversion...we have a lot of evil to face and a lot of people to confront who need to hear about (and experience) Gods love through us, and a lot more sins that will be committed that need to be accounted for. This is why an ongoing life of faith AND works is required...that we continue to pray, and we continue to ask God for grace in the long hard struggle. This is what the Sacraments do, and prayer, and reading the Word, and worshiping...they give us the strength to do the JOB that we have been given on this planet. The Christian life is about more than just avoiding hell...as hopefully most of us know. So when it comes right down to it we should be doing everything we can to stay strong in our faith and sincere in our Love of God. Saying a sinners prayer once and doing nothing else after that point isn't likely to get us very far in our faith walk even if it does save our soul.
Posted by: paigeu | November 20, 2007 10:18 AM
To Michelle Potter, If you are not Catholic, even if you believe in the Real Presence, you may NOT receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, also known as the Eucharist, or the Bread/Host/Wafer. Receiving the Eucharist not only means that you believe in the Real Presence, but it also means that you believe all the beliefs of the Catholic Church.
And to Anne, as a Catholic, I don't understand what you mean by baptism and repentance being "works". I think, like Barbara has said, Catholics and Protestants use the same words to describe the same things, but the words do not mean the same thing. Sacraments are all found in the Bible. They are outward signs, instituted by Christ, to give grace. We see the action of the water being poured or the person being immersed, but it is not the water itself that saves, it is the supernatural reality of the blood of Jesus that is really washing the person new into the Body of Christ. I don't understand how you think that is a "work". If it is a work, then it is the work of Christ, it is a gift, an unearned, unmerited gift from the Blessed Trinity. How is that not Biblical?
My question to Protestants is I don't understand the "once saved always saved" doctrine. I know many Protestants that say they are saved, but then continue to live sinfully. It is as if going through the motions of accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior is a magic formula for getting into heaven. If this were the case, then why does the Bible give example after example of how to live as a Christian? For example, the Sermon on the Mount? The 10 Commandments? The last judgment where the goats and sheep will be divided? It says nothing in the Bible about the sheep and the goats having accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior, so then they are automatically saved. In fact, Jesus says that many who will be condemned will claim that they knew Him.
As Catholics we believe that Jesus does the saving, but we must, in return, live as Christ taught to show that we really do love Him. Otherwise, we would be just paying lip service that we are followers of Christ. Is that what you think "works" are? Maybe you could clarify that for me. Thanks!
Julie C.M.
Posted by: Julie C.M. | November 20, 2007 10:46 AM
I am also very sad that some Catholics seem to be missing or ignoring your point that you have not finally, "seen the light," and joined the One true church. *In that, however, they ARE supported by their church doctrine.* (Thanks for referencing catholic.com, btw.) The "exceptions" to the rule that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church do not seem to include belonging to an evangelical church. Rather, we belong to the group that, "knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."
Hi Marian. I want to respond to this quotation above. This teaching from the Catechism only speaks to those who know in their heart of hearts that the Catholic Church is true, yet, for whatever reason, they decide to leave and do their own thing. It is not speaking to people who truly believe in their hearts that we are practicing anti-Biblical behaviours. How could you, in good conscience, if you think we are re-sacrificing Jesus or "worshipping" Mary, ever be a Catholic? You shouldn't.
As an aside, we DON'T re-sacrifice Jesus or worship Mary or a host of other things we're accused of, but if we DID, that would be offensive. Many non-Catholics don't truly understand what we do because they only seek Protestant sources to learn about Catholicism. That's what I used to do. But if you do a little studying of the earliest Christians, you'll quickly see that the New Testament church looked like a Catholic Church, not a Protestant one.
Go here http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ and check out the dates next to the writings of these faith heroes. Then read what they wrote. Especially the really early ones like Polycarp and Irenaeus.
God bless!
Posted by: Clare | November 20, 2007 11:23 AM
Barbara, I am writing this post because I must. I can see that you are becoming very upset with those who disagree with you on this issue, and I am sorry for that. I honestly think there has been very little judgment and criticism, but a lot of honest and concerned questioning. I have a great deal of respect for you. I enjoy your blog, and your company. I know your family personally, and admire you all very much. My heart is calm, not angry, and not judgmental. I am telling the truth as I know it, in hopes that God will use my words to further His kingdom in whatever way He chooses.
I am looking at the huge number of commenters here, and see that most are Roman Catholic. Therefore, I must give a bit of a defense of Protestantism where I see it being misrepresented by your commenters. It’s no more than many of your Roman Catholic commenters have done.
Quoting paigu: >
I don’t disagree that Roman Catholics and many in evangelicalism have a common “faith in Christ plus ____(fill in the blank)” theology. But I just can’t keep silent here while you misrepresent the true Protestant faith.
The true “5S crowd” or Reformed Christians, who are the heirs of the Reformation of Luther and Calvin (and Augustine) cannot be lumped in with the rest of evangelicalism. We most emphatically do NOT believe anyone is saved by repeating a prayer or by baptism, or any other work. Our salvation is a free gift of God’s grace, and the only work we are saved by is the work of Christ’s perfect life of obedience to the law of God, and His sacrificial death on the cross in our place. God is the one who regenerates our hearts, and it is at His good pleasure, not because of anything we do or anything He foresees that we will do. From start to finish, our salvation is God’s work. We don’t add anything to our salvation. He saves us while we are still dead in our sins for His glory and His alone. The only way we can repent is if God chooses to regenerate us. This is consistent throughout the Old and New Testaments, for all the saints (believers), for all time.
Quoting paigeu again: >
We evangelize because Jesus commanded us to evangelize. Period. God is the one who regenerates hearts and makes believers. This is true evangelism…giving the good news (the gospel) to unbelievers and knowing that God is the only one who can quicken the dead heart. We don’t evangelize for “results” – that leads to all kinds of strange practices. We evangelize out of obedience and gratitude to God for His amazing grace to us.
And, as far as the Roman Catholic church being the “one true” church, I cannot disagree more. The one true church is made up of believers beginning in the Old Testament (those who looked forward to God’s promised Messiah, NOT to the law for their salvation), and continuing through today, regardless of denomination. This is the true Protestant understanding of the church. And it would include any in the Roman Catholic church who are trusting in the finished work of Christ alone for their salvation. I can’t see how that is judgmental and harsh.
Yes, doctrine and theology are important…Scripture proves it over and over. Paul stood up to Peter over doctrinal issues, and even rebuked him for his wrong doctrine at the Council of Jerusalem (Galatians 2:11-14). The Reformation was a correction of wrong doctrine in the church, and as Protestants, we believe that the one true church has continued in the Reformation distinctives. I have to say that because so many Roman Catholics have commented here on the fact that they consider Rome the true church. Obviously, we disagree completely on that issue. It is not judgmental or harsh to recognize our differences. It is honesty.
Anyway, I am sure my comments will not be pleasing to many, but I cannot keep silent, in obedience to Christ’s command to preach the gospel to all nations.
Posted by: Kathy in VA | November 20, 2007 12:43 PM
Thank you for answering my question, Paigeu. I realized what you were saying as I was driving my daughter to school this morning and realized I hadn't given your comments full-thought. I can totally see what you are saying. I appreciate your patience and time in addressing my question. It gets tricky when we get into what constitutes faith unto salvation, huh! I certainly don't know what it takes for sure and am glad that only God judges the heart.
For the record, I think ALL Christians and ALL Christian groups and institutions have their flaws. I'm not just picking on Catholics. My main concerns are when ANY group or person puts obstacles in the way of simple faith by encouraging idolatry, self-righteousness, trying to earn our way into heaven, etc. I think Protestants are just as guilty of this as Catholics. I don't believe there is any perfect or 100% true church.
Posted by: Anne | November 20, 2007 1:11 PM
Paige,
It says of those who join a "schismatic" church that, "...no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity." That's pretty clear to me.
Posted by: Marian | November 20, 2007 1:27 PM
Julie, thanks for letting me know about communion.
Posted by: Michelle Potter | November 20, 2007 6:23 PM
Kathy-
I am confused...........
Are you saying that God chooses who will be saved like a lottery?
Are you saying that God withholds grace to some, so that they are doomed to hell? Or are you saying that nobody goes to hell?
Forgive me I just don't know how to interpret what you are saying.
Marion- a sin is a damnable offense depending on the intent and the ability to give consent. No sin is ALWAYS mortal because the other conditions must be met to make it such. I am not sure what your source is...can you link me?
Posted by: paigeu | November 20, 2007 6:54 PM
Paigeu, I believe Kathy was referring to reformed theology. I'd like to mention that I consider myself "evangelical" but do not believe the reformed doctrine. As Kathy mentioned, Reformed and Evangelical are not the same. You can google it to find out the details. I believe what is written in the Bible, not what some men decided to interpret it as meaning. Sometimes everything is not so clear, and so there is division among the denominations. But one thing that can help you know if you are following the right path (Barbara-this thought is for you too :) consider whether the words are God's Word or man's words. Then you will know whether you're following God or not. I needed to hear that too. I am so sad that there are these divisions among us when we could be working together for God.
Posted by: Angela | November 20, 2007 9:22 PM
As a very recent convert myself, I just wanted to say, "Welcome home!"
You might enjoy reading Thomas Howard's Evangelical is Not Enough. It was one of the many books that sped us on our journey.
Posted by: Jordana | November 20, 2007 10:24 PM
quote by Julie C.M.,
My question to Protestants is I don't understand the "once saved always saved" doctrine. I know many Protestants that say they are saved, but then continue to live sinfully."
Unfortunately, I could say the same thing about the majority of the Catholics I have known. I don't think this is unique to Protestants- being sinners!
"It is as if going through the motions of accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior is a magic formula for getting into heaven.
If this were the case, then why does the Bible give example after example of how to live as a Christian? For example, the Sermon on the Mount? The 10 Commandments? The last judgment where the goats and sheep will be divided? It says nothing in the Bible about the sheep and the goats having accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior, so then they are automatically saved. In fact, Jesus says that many who will be condemned will claim that they knew Him."
Julie- I really do wonder the same things!! And I don't believe in a magic formula either! I'm glad I'm not God and don't have to judge people's hearts based on the outward behavior I observe.
"As Catholics we believe that Jesus does the saving, but we must, in return, live as Christ taught to show that we really do love Him."
I too believe it's important to live as Christ taught. But I would phrase your sentence a little differently. I think if we truly love Him and understand His love and grace towards us, then we will want to try to live how He showed us.
Kind of like with my kids, I don't want them to primarily obey me out of obligation, guilt, or trying to prove their love. I want them to obey because they love and trust me and have a good relationship with me.
So I guess some of my problem with works is that they are often misused. They can easily be done out of the wrong motivation. Groups can come up with their own "works" yardsticks to measure others. We can try to rely on our works to curry favor with God and/or try to get into heaven.
We can live in such a state of shame and feelings of failure over our works that we feel unworthy and distant from God. On the flip side, we can feel so great about our wonderful "works" that we become prideful and judgmental.
I've seen works misused these ways by myself, by people and by groups- both Protestant and Catholic.
Julie C.M., I appreciate your dialogue and the questions you raise. Thanks!
Posted by: Anne | November 20, 2007 11:23 PM
Dear Barbara, I recently found your blog by accident and am astonished by what I read because in some ways it is so similar to my current experience. I was a Catholic for many years but finally left to join an evangelical church which I totally love. Suddenly, about 6 weeks ago the Lord told me to go back to the Catholic church. I was incredulous and listed all the things I didn't like about the Catholic church (like he didn't know). He said "Don't look at those things look at Me."
With great reluctance I started going to the Catholic church as well as 'my'Church, but He's changed my heart in that incredible short time and helped me understand some of the things I've always disliked - and misunderstood. Sure the music's awful, the sermon's uninspiring and the fellowship non-existent but like He told me I look at Him and am at peace.
Tomorrow I'm going to see my beloved Pastor to tell him I'm leaving. God's given me a hard path, but like us all I say AMEN to wherever He's leading me.
Posted by: Jean | November 21, 2007 3:35 AM
Hey Jean that is awesome. I must say that I enjoy the music at Mass and our Priest has homilies that lift me up so that I can make it through the week, so I think it can depend on where you are etc.
I know through my 33 yrs of being Catholic I have had some priests who could really give an awesome homily and some who just really didn't have that same gift, after all, they are human, ha!!
At the end of the day, for me, it is so much more than the music or the homily, but it is always nice when you have a good homily, ha!! Try watching EWTN Mass and get your fill of good speaking, also, the journey home with Marcus Grodi is AWESOME!!!! Blessings to you!
Posted by: Tracy | November 21, 2007 11:02 AM
Anne, I TOTALLY AGREE that there are some pretty scandalous Catholics out there as well as Protestants. I am especially upset to see so called "Catholic Politicians" vote time and again for pro-abortion legislation. They really scandalize me and all good and faithful Catholics as well as all Christians. So, we agree on this issue that just because you claim to be Catholic or "saved" doesn't necessarily mean you are automatically going to heaven.
I also agree that we love and serve God because we love him. Perhaps I could have thought that line through better before typing it. I parent as you do: wanting my children to obey and love me because they love me, not because they are proving their love. yet, at the same time, proving ones love is a decision to choose to love and we all could say that when we love someone, we do things for them to show our love. So we are both correct.
As far as the "works" go, I guess I am still confused as to what Protestants think we Catholics believe about works. I don't understand your meaning when you say "some groups can come up with their own "works" yardsticks to measure others." All I can glean from your comment is that sometimes people do works for self glory, so that is wrong. Yes, I agree, that would be the sin of pride. Yes, I am sure there are many Catholics who THINK they can fool God by doing nice things, but who are really doing them for themselves and not for the glory and honor of God. They will have to face God at their judgement and answer for that.
Do you mean that the Catholic Church has a yardstick for measuring Catholics' works? If that is what you mean, then I all I can say is, (as far as I know :)) we use the yardsticks that Jesus gave us. Maybe you could give me some examples so I know what you mean.
As far as I know, Catholics don't really speak about "works". They speak more about having faith in God, trusting in His Mercy, and living out each moment with great love for God. That is what I try to do in each moment of the day. So, I guess you could call it "works", but I think of it as loving God as best as I can moment to moment. Only God can judge me on how well I did, so I trust in his mercy for when I fail, but I also see, through prayer, that He accepts my MANY faults and failings and loves me just as a parent loves the attempts of their children to do their best. It really is a Father and child relationship.
Thanks for the comments, Anne! Julie C.M.
Posted by: Julie C.M. | November 21, 2007 1:49 PM
Regarding "praying to Saints"
This is a case where English fails us when drawing the distinction between different meanings.
Take for example the word "love". I can say I love my wife, I love my best male friend, I love you as a fellow Christian, I love my dog, or I love chocolate. Each of those words has an entirely different meaning, and when used in context the meaning can usually be accurately discerned (I would nope you didn't think I loved my dog the same way I love my wife :)).
The word "pray" likewise has multiple meanings to a Catholic. These can be broken up like this (from the original Greek):
Latria: Worship given to God alone.
Dulia: The honor paid to the Saints.
Hyperdulia: The honor paid to the Blessed Mother (higher than any Saint, but never worshiped as God).
Hope that helped.
Posted by: Tony | November 23, 2007 2:07 PM
Barbara,
Your website was given to me by a parishioner who has been reading about your journey. Welcome Home! Your honest search for truth is has been richly rewarded.
Rosalind Moss is a Jewish convert to Catholicism via Protestant Evangelicalism. She often says that to "when one reads Church history, one ceases to be Protestant." I admire all of your readers who despite fear, recrimination, and alienation from families, are seeking a deeper understanding of the Catholic Church.
I am a lay minister in the Catholic Church with a specific ministry to adults. I have several reading recommendations for anyone desiring a deeper understanding of the faith.
Scott Hahn is a convert to Catholicism after being a Protestant minister. His book, "Rome Sweet Rome" is the story of his conversion and the many questions he faced while trying to depose the Catholic Church. I highly recommend reading his book, "The Lamb's Supper" for those wanting an exquisite insight into the Catholic liturgy. At each Mass, heaven touches earth and we are invited into the heavenly worship that is celebrated eternally in heaven. A must read!
Jeff Cavin's has a wonderful bible study on the Book of Revelation. What does that have to do with Catholicism? Everything!! The book of Revelation is not about trying to figure out all of the symbolism, but seeing the beauty of the divine liturgy and the worship of God right in the midst of the Book of Revelation. This study is available from Ascension Press (www.ascensionpress.com) and is entitled: "Adventures in Revelation - The Kingdom Yet to Come." The students who participated in this study came away with such joy as they anticipate the second coming of Christ as well as a deeper understanding of the Mass.
For those who would like to study the Mass and the meaning behind the prayers, symbols, gestures, I highly recommend reading: "Celebrating the Mass - A Guide for Understanding and Loving the Mass More Deeply" by Alfred McBride, available from Our Sunday Visitor.
Several excellent Catholic websites to visit are:
cuf.org (Catholics United for the Faith) which has "Faith Facts" on many questions that people ask about Catholicism.
www.catholic.com (Catholic Answers)this is a great apologetics website.
www.catholicexchange.com - a good website with daily news that effects our faith and society.
The beauty about Catholicism is that you can always go to deeper level of spirituality and wisdom and never exhaust the rich treasure that Christ has left in the safe keeping of His Church.
To all who seek Truth, May Christ guide your journey!
Posted by: Carolyn | December 18, 2007 4:59 PM
