November 22, 2007 7:38 AM
Evangelical to Catholic: my journey #6
[Note: this is part of a continuing series chronicling my journey from evangelicalism to Catholicism. This series is not meant to cause division, but to reveal division already there - and to spark honest discussion. As an evangelical I've heard and continue to hear lots of criticism of the Catholic church but little self-examination on the Protestant side. So if my comments seem more directed towards questioning nonCatholic believers, that is why. Please, if you are new to this discussion, realize that a lot of ground has already been covered in the comments and read through those on previous entries before rehashing old news. I am receiving a lot of feedback that this has been an eye-opening and thought-provoking series for many believers on either side. If that is the case, then I consider my call as a writer fulfilled. I can only hope that each of us is examining his/her conscience for areas of stubbornness, presumption and pride.]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.~~~Proverbs 3:5~~~
This was the verse that came to me as I woke up this morning. Amidst the Babel of voices I'm hearing, this was so reassuring.
I know that there are many people trying to "understand" what has happened to me. What has happened is simply the same thing that has been happening to me for 20 years since I surrendered my life to Christ. I am following where God leads me.
I have now officially been labeled a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing at a new blog by what appears to be a Doug Phillips devotee. I have to shake my head as I think how those Evangelicals who are the most virulently anti-papist and anti-Catholic are also those who put themselves/allow others to put them on a pedestal and then rule their small flock with an iron hand. And their followers follow in lock-step. Indeed, that Us v. Them mentality is the beginning of cultism - the kind of cultism that led Jim Jones, who began by doing good for the down-and-out in San Francisco, into a parallel universe. The leaders encourage this thinking - along with Circle the Wagons - specifically to tighten their grip on their followers.
The most Pharisee-like church I ever attended was the one where the Pharisees where regularly skewered in sermons.
Oh wad some power the giftie gie us
To see ourselves as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An’ foolish notion.
To a Louse. Robert Burns 1759-1796
Let's face it: the world of Evangelicalism is personality-driven - a flaw that allows true believers to become distracted rather than continuing to focus on and follow God. I have to say that those who accuse me of not studying the Scripture are being very disrespectful of who I am and what God has obviously done in my life. The fact is, I could have written many of the dissections of the Catholic Church that my accusers have written.
But there is an element of faith many Protestants forget - and that is the spiritual experience of knowing God. You can study the Bible all you want and memorize it like you memorize the map of a distant land. But when you walk there, it's different. I know that as a sometimes-journalist. I can write a story based on speaking over the phone with people. I only really know what's going on when I travel there and spend time.
Let me say clearly that I no longer subscribe to the Five Solas. I will be sorting this out as time goes along. If to some in the world of Evangelicalism that makes me a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing, then so be it. I think it's sad that believers can be so arrogant and presumptuous as to judge someone who has obviously been obedient in a way that they would never stoop to. Why adopt kids with disabilities when you can make a fortune and create an empire posing for pictures and selling a perfect package to the sheep who want to recreate the "perfect" family like yours?
Who are really the Wolves in Sheep's Clothing?
I'm sorry, but it's these personality-driven ministries that believers need to be skeptical of. The ones that come down in a crash because of greed, corruption, hidden infidelity, homosexuality, or incest. The litany of those eventually discredited is endless - endless because it will continue. All because the leaders got so puffed up with pride because the sheep followed them blindly as they quoted Scripture. Then they can't help themselves, because
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.
~~~Proverbs 16:18~~~
Let's not forget that anyone can use scripture for any purpose. Prosperity gospelers, Eastern gurus - even Satan used Scripture to distract Jesus. So clobbering people with scripture does not necessarily prove anything. As we've seen in the back-and-forth at this site, proof-texting can become a game with no winners.
But why winners and losers? God never intended it this way.
An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all—he is the greatest.""Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."
~~~Luke 9:46-50~~~
Anyway. I find that the Mass puts me more in touch with God. We begin by confessing our sins. We hear Scripture straight from the source - Old Testament, Psalms, New Testament, and Gospel. I hear a humble homily of 10 minutes which encourages me to dwell on the scripture I've just heard. We recite the Nicene Creed (which is an affirmation of what we believe) and the Our Father (which Christ taught us to pray). Then - as Christ taught us - we remember him by an ancient tradition of receiving the Eucharist - which people met to do long before they had Scripture to discuss.
These left-brained questions make me wonder how Evangelicals think the Christians in the early church survived without the Scripture. Are all those people - who didn't have the benefit of dogmatic belief in the Faive Solas - are their souls lost forever?
Well, these are just some random thought while I really should be stuffing our turkey :) I've told you that my mind and spirit are active as I go about my day. Really, we moms can get a lot of spiritual work done as we work. Yesterday ended up being completely hijacked as after Sophia had her pictures taken, we shuffled through the leaves of the brick sidewalks in Winchester peeking in here and there and just spending time together. Every once in a while I'd think of all the stuff I "should" be doing at home and then I'd just remember that place of contentment, knowing I was right where God wanted me to be no matter what it seemed I "should" be doing.
I feel so much closer to God. I really feel that the celebration of the Mass and learning not to "rely on my own understanding" has brought me to a place where I am more able to follow him moment by moment.
Catholicism does have a more mystical component. You have to let go of your pride, of your attachment to dogma, and of leaning on your own understanding.
I wonder why the evangelical church threw out kneeling to worship God. Why did they eliminate the corporate public confession of sin and the recitation of our beliefs? These are all things which remind me of my status before God and my dependence on his mercy and grace. As I do these things on a regular basis they are impacting me - brushing off the rough edges of my pride. I thought I had a glad heart as I served my family, but now it's gladder still.
I can only give glimpses of where I am, but I feel God's love and compassion permeating everything I do these days. While it grieves me on some level that some would take it upon themselves to judge me, I'd say that's only a reflection of the faulty ground on which they themselves stand.
The Lord knows those who are His. ~~~2 Timothy 2:19~~~
On this Thanksgiving - my 60th on this earth - I am giving thanks for God's amazing grace!
Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come.
T'was Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.
The Christian life is a journey, my friends. God has surprised me by taking me many places I never thought He would. My advice would be to stop listening to everyone else and listen to Him.
Posted in Catholicism, My life | Permalink
Comments
Hi Barbara,
We've only talked a couple of times, but I read your blog all the time, and I just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying your WIBAWIB posts. It's so fascinating to read where God is taking you, and where He's led you in the past. I'm not Catholic, I'm just a plain 'ol Christian. I just wanted you to know that I'll still be reading your blog, no matter where God leads you.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Sandy
Posted by: Sandy | November 22, 2007 9:11 AM
Barbara, that is a wonderful post!!
The thing is, I'm Catholic but I don't hate or think that non Catholics can't get to Heaven or that they don't have just as wonderful a relationship with our Lord as I do. It saddens me to see the division over this. If you came on here tomorrow and said you have changed your mind and the Catholic church is not for you, I would love you anyways and I would think not one thing less of you as a Christian and I would fully expect to see you in Heaven (God Willing, that I will be in Heaven, I don't want to presume, ha!)
Do I believe that the Catholic church is the one true church? Yes, I do, but that does not mean I don't think other faiths can't know and love the Lord as much as I do and I believe that they are Christians as much as I am.
When I left the Catholic church for five years, then it was different, I knew what it meant to be a Catholic and I knew the difference, I was born and raised Catholic, and in my heart, I felt I was wrong and I was so unhappy for those five years and that unhappiness stayed with me until I came back home to the church. But, if you've never been Catholic, it is different. I don't think Jesus ever intended for there to be all these churches, I think he meant for it to be ONE church, but, we are humans and Jesus is a loving and forgiving father and he understands us more than we understand ourselves.
No, the Catholic faith will not be for everyone, but when you are clearly called to it and open to it, oh, my, it is wonderful!!
Barbara, when I came back to the Catholic church, what really made a difference for me was getting involved, I started to volunteer and join the different groups at church and the women's bible study, I needed that support and community and fellowship and I have made such wonderful friends, I'm so glad I got involved in my church and boy, they sure need people to do that!!
I'm praying for you!
Posted by: Tracy | November 22, 2007 9:24 AM
Happy Thanksgiving, Barbara!
If you have the chance, could you blog sometime on how you conclude that it is God's leading that you hear?
In my humble view, if something doesn't "square" with Scripture, (i.e. praying to Mary or other Saints, confessing our sins to a human priest, or the concept of purgatory) then God will never ask us to worship in a way that goes against His word.
Scripture is God's Holy Word, and our benchmark. I believe the Catholic Church has a mystical beauty, but my goodness, we have our very own High Priest, whose name is Christ Jesus. What a holy, gift! And we are saved by faith alone.... Praise God! Those of us in Christ have been chosen before the foundations of the World.
I think it is sad when people "attack" one another. It isn't right. However, let's use Scripture as the benchmark and disagree scripturally, intelligently, and with prayer.
Posted by: Kristin | November 22, 2007 9:43 AM
Kristin -
This is the kind of thing that is - frankly - driving me nuts. I have spent well over 15,000 words discussing my journey. I have said upfront I no longer believe in the Five Solas. I do believe in church tradition and authority and I also believe in God's ability to lead me personally through the Holy Spirit.
I am so tired of people coming at me with this Gotcha! spirit. When I became a Christian 20 years ago there was no way I could have explained my faith to a needling nonbeliever. Nor would I have wanted to as a person like me coming to believe was such a miracle that I understood it as a leap of faith and not an intellectual exercise.
I have stated also that I do not feel accountable to those seeking to lay traps for me with questions like this. Evangelicals have many misconceptions and myths and prejudice about Catholics deeply embedded in their hearts. I am not arrogant enough to assume that through rhetoric I can break through those well-fortified walls.
I notice that some commenters are asking the same questions over and over, which leads me to believe they're not listening to the sincere answers that have been given here.
So what would be the point really of my answering your questions, Kristin? I really have so many more productive ways to spend my time. I notice that this is your first comment here. Maybe you don't realize that I have four children with Down syndrome - including three we've adopted. God has also called me to write, so I must be careful how I spend my time. Which is why I've not gotten involved in the debates here.
Please, if you sincerely want to know the answers to your questions, go to catholic.com. One of my sons has a friend who challenged him about the "praying to the saints" thing. My son - who is a merit Scholar and devoted student of the Bible - went to catholic.com to investigate what Catholics believe and came away persuaded that there was nothing "unbiblical" about asking for intercession . I had not discussed the details of my conversion with him, as he was away at school. But he sent me the link and told me what he had discovered.
The difference I see between my son and some of the interrogators here is that through the Holy Spirit he is not subject to evangelical dogma but has an open mind. I respect that in him.
Posted by: barbara | November 22, 2007 10:04 AM
Barbara, warmest wishes to you on this Thanksgiving Day. I pray that God will bless you mightily as you seek Him....I'll share with you one of my favorite verses:Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.
love in Him,
Diane
Posted by: Diane | November 22, 2007 10:30 AM
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family, Barbara! Can't wait for that family photo this year! My heart is so happy for you and the added joy you are finding in Him. C.S. Lewis' phrase comes to mind, Surprised by Joy. I'm with you all the way.
Posted by: Greta | November 22, 2007 11:10 AM
Dear Barbara,
Happy Thanksgiving! May your day be blessed and your heart be filled with the bountiful gifts of our Lord.
I love reading your blog. You are a wonderful and gifted writer with much to say that needs to be heard.
About these slings and arrows. . . .all I have to offer is the realization, arrived at long ago, that there truly is and will be no end to the reproofs and lamentations regarding your journey to the Catholic Church. Trying to explain and justify, for me, always feels like something akin to herding cats.
Put on the full armor of God. The Lord is leading you to your Home, His one, true Church. His angels are rejoicing and His saints are welcoming you with open arms.
Posted by: Maggie | November 22, 2007 11:14 AM
Happy Thanksgiving Barbara!
I have been loving this series so far, but haven't been able to comment as I've been taking care of my all day colicky 5th baby (and due to a decided lack of eloquence -- or is that sleep? -- on my part).
You have such a great head on your shoulders, I wish everyone could see that. Even *if* you were wrong, which I don't think you are, your logic is impeccable. Arguments against it just sound like so much straw. God bless you on your journey! :)
Posted by: Amy | November 22, 2007 11:57 AM
I wikipedia'd the 5solas. Since reading these discussions I have spent a lot of time there. :)
As I am reading the wikipedia entry my mind is being flooded by all of these thoughts that I feel like I will burst if I don't write down. 30,000 protestant demonimations founded on 5 solas...or 5 "onlies". 5 little boxes to squish God down into. Never mind that Scripture was only available to the filthy rich before the printing press was invented... because before that it had to be hand written and that took years. Never-mind that 70% of the world is illiterate.
This is the wikipedia paragraph for sola scriptura:
Sola scriptura is the teaching that the Bible is the only inspired and authoritative Word of God, is the only source for Christian doctrine, and is accessible to all — that is, it is perspicuous and self-interpreting. That the Bible requires no interpretation outside of itself is an idea directly opposed to the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Coptic, Anglican, and Roman Catholic faiths , which teach that the Bible can be authentically interpreted only by Apostolic Tradition and the ecumenical church councils. This doctrine is sometimes called the formal principle of the Reformation, since it is the source and norm of the material principle, sola fide.
I find the part I italicized very interesting. Every single faith that has existed before the reformation agrees on at least one thing- that faith is to be interpreted and protected through apostolic succession (i.e. tradition). So it isn't just the "corrupt" Catholic faith...but all the other faiths as well that existed before the printing press was invented.
There has only been 4 or 5 *major* splits from Catholicism BEFORE "sola scriptura"... Since then? Just take a look in your phonebook under Churches to see how well we managed to not divide the Church.
It really does come down completely to the 5 solas. I can't see them as anything less than a huge HUGE error in doctrine and this morning I am feeling a little bit ticked off about how strongly they are clinged to and how forcefully they are defended. People keep asking you to defend your faith against the 5S's and yet you have declared that you believe the 5s's to be an error in theology, and that you will no longer filter your beliefs through those lenses.
Posted by: paigeu | November 22, 2007 11:59 AM
Oh....and now that I have stirred the sweet potatoes and have calmed down I can't forget to wish you a Happy Thanksgiving.
Posted by: paigeu | November 22, 2007 12:01 PM
Hi Barbara,
I'm a daily reader here. I rarely comment (but I hope you remember me, because I have commented before!), I don't have kids and as such I don't feel I can add a lot of worthwhile stuff to the discussion. I just love your writing, my husband and I have been moved to tears over many of your posts. (I call him over to the computer sometimes to read and he laughs and says "I can't believe I'm reading a blog called "Mommy Life.")
Anyway, I just wanted to make a quick comment about the "Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" ridiculousness. I am a big reader at True Womanhood- the blog that sparked that whole ridiculous patriospeak blog and when I saw patriospeak's categorization of you as a "Wolf In Sheep's Clothing" I immediately thought it was due to the fact that you are an intelligent Christian woman who asks honest questions, and who doesn't toe the Patriarchy movement's line. They are still all bent out of shape over the Jennifer Epstein stuff, in which you so awesomely took a stand. You have one of the largest Christian women readerships on the blogosphere, of course you are a "Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" in their eyes. Take it as a compliment- it means you think for yourself!
Posted by: Katie B. | November 22, 2007 12:09 PM
Barbara,
I'm so thankful for your blog. I believe your writing to be sincere, heartfelt, and used by God to bring others closer to him. Your series about your change to Catholicism has challenged and inspired me. I am not Catholic but have always been drawn to this church. I'm learning more from you and from the resources you recommend and I'm fascinated by what I'm finding. I'm curious to know more about how a Protestant would even approach going to a Catholic church though. I don't know the traditions and what I'm supposed to do in a service. Can I really just walk into a Catholic church? Happy Thanksgiving and God bless.
Posted by: Dawn | November 22, 2007 2:25 PM
Hi again Barbara,
I am so sorry that you took offense to my e-mail...I truly was interested in hearing and understanding your answers to my sincere questions. I could go to catholicdotcom, but I wanted to hear answers from someone whose writing I appreciate. You and I have e-mailed before, and you have given me some valuable suggestions concerning the issue of childhood stuttering. I have read your blog off and on for over a year, and although I don't agree with you on every issue, I appreciate your thoughts.
I am a busy wife and mother of four, so my computer time is limited as well. I can count on one hand the number of times I have chosen to comment at any blog....but your series on your journey to Catholocism has interested me and challenged me to dig deeper into Scripture.
I wish you well.
Posted by: Kristin | November 22, 2007 4:12 PM
Barbara,
I saw that ridiculous blog label as well---they called me "Rushing to Mischief" so I guess that means I'm not quite as smart as you, a "wolf in sheep's clothing!" Katie is correct above---we are women who think for ourselves and we are not afraid to question things as we walk the journey of faith. As silly as that patriospeak blog is, I take the fact that I'm rushing to mischief as a compliment, really! :)
You said in your post the Christian life is a JOURNEY. I couldn't agree more. That is the whole reason for the name of my blog, Enjoy the Journey. Sometimes the journey to the Cross takes us to some hard and uncomfortable places, kind of like you're feeling right now. But in those hard times, we also find some of the most beautiful, honest, and true communion with God we couldn't find elsewhere. Truly, the valley can be the mountaintop!
I wish you all the best, my fellow "mischief maker!" You are bold, and you are one smart lady in Christ. You encourage me DAILY!
God bless you and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
Posted by: Lindsey @ EnjoyTheJourney | November 22, 2007 4:36 PM
Hi Barbara,
Actually, there are a number of Protestant denominations, churches and groups that: 1) Kneel to worship, 2) Corporately confess sin 3) Recite the creeds and 4) Say the Lord's prayer (or Our Father). It's not just Catholics. Many of the more "high church" groups do so.
I have gone to Catholic.com and was trying to understand asking "the saints" to pray for you. I completely understand asking other Christians to pray for you, but it seems to me that asking dead Christians to pray for you is prohibited by Scripture when it talks about not consulting the dead. That's what King Saul got in trouble for. I understand that asking for prayer is a noble thing, but I can't see how Scripture would allow communicating to a dead person.
Also, I don't understand how a saint in heaven could hear all those requests for prayer. What if a thousand people were asking Peter or Mary or the Apostle John for something at one time. How could they sort it all out, assuming they could hear it?
Finally, if we really can ask the saints in heaven to pray for us, why not send up a general prayer to all the saints at once every time rather than picking one of them to ask for prayer? Sort of like sending out an email to all the Christians in your address book to pray for you.
Maybe these questions are answered somewhere, but I haven't found them.
If we're brothers and sisters in Christ, we should be willing to hear questions from one another. That's the only way we will learn and grow. It was very courageous of you to put your beliefs out on public display because it does invite people to challenge those beliefs. I don't think it's a matter of either Protestantism is right or Catholicism is right. We need to listen to each other and not be afraid about being challenged on our beliefs.
Posted by: Brian | November 22, 2007 7:00 PM
Brian -
you refer to "dead Christians." My understanding is that Jesus gave us eternal life.
I stopped reading your comment at that point because I really do think that Protestants who want to argue here will go to any lengths.
btw - I am not stupid. I know there are denominations that kneel, etc. Are you not hearing what I've said? I have accepted the Catholic Church and its teachings. I have rejected the Five Solas.
I don't waste time arguing intellectually with nonbelievers about my belief in Christ because I know that it involves a leap of faith. I likewise am not going to argue about this stuff with people who obviously already have their minds made up. I won't presume to think that I can accomplish be rhetoric something that can only be accomplished through faith.
I can only affirm once again that I am experiencing God more fully and I plan to continue doing so through the traditions and heritage of the Catholic Church. I respect your right to worship as you see fit and have no plans to come to your blog to dissuade you from your beliefs.
Posted by: barbara | November 22, 2007 7:41 PM
Brian, maybe this will help you:
Accused of worshipping things other than Jesus, Catholics take a lot of heat on their teaching of praying to saints (defined as dead Christians known to be in heaven by the Church).
“How Catholics believe in something like this is a bit of a mystery to non-Catholic Christians. It has even led to hate-mail, hate-speech, hate-websites, etc… about Catholics,” says Dr. Jennifer Drake a professor of religious studies at St. Andrew University.
“I think it’s really due to a lack of understanding of the doctrine and how it fits in with the rest of the Catholic faith. Also is the issue of necessity.”
According to Dr. Drake the practice of praying to saints is not something someone is required to do as a Catholic in order to be Catholic, but one should understand its origin and its relation to the everlasting Christian community of the body of Christ.
“The practice of praying to saints is derived from the doctrines of the Communion of Saints. The ‘communion of saints’ is essentially a fancy term for the church - meaning the people that make-up the church and is in the Apostle’s Creed.”
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church the communion of saints is “all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church...(Cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 962).”
Dr. Drake says that the doctrine is rooted deep in Scripture and explains the interconnectedness of Christians.
The communion of saints is derived from the belief that through Jesus Christ all Christians are made brothers and sisters and that physical death on earth does not sever that connection.
It is that the Church is the one Body of Christ and that there are not two separate ones on heaven and earth. Physical death on earth cannot separate one from Jesus nor from unity in the Body of Christ (since there is only one). These are all biblical teachings in Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 8:35-39 by which the Church derived an implicit truth being the communion of saints.
“There are countless examples of other doctrines that non-Catholics believe that are not explicit in the Bible like the communion of saints such as the doctrine of the Trinity. Not everything is mapped out perfectly in the Bible and Christians have had to make inferences over time about the faith,” states Drake.
“Praying to the saints is not like praying to Jesus,” points out Justin Chang, a Catholic in the United States.
“I’ve always known I could approach God directly and generally I do. I’m confused when people say that they thought we had to pray to saints.
“I think the word ‘pray’ is just a bad word to describe the type of communication relationship between us and the saints in heaven. You know how when you are going through a tough time and you talk to someone in your family or in your church and ask them to pray for you? Well, that’s what praying to the saints is like. I’m not asking them to usurp God and give me grace, but merely asking them to pray for me too.
“Since we don’t have any other word that deals with communicating with people in heaven I think the Catholic Church says ‘pray’ because it is something that we are all familiar with.
“It’s not required for anyone to pray to any saint, but it’s an option we have. It’s like getting more people to lobby God for your cause.
“I don’t worship anyone but God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Praying to saints does not mean worship. I worship only God as do all Catholics – not Mary, not any other saint.”
Posted by: Tracy | November 22, 2007 7:47 PM
Oh, Brian, I found this at Catholic.com, it can be hard to navigate at first but it is there, you just have to keep using the search engine, etc.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
Hope this explains the Catholic position better for you.
Peace!
Posted by: Tracy | November 22, 2007 7:52 PM
Brian,
I suspect that you didn't search catholic.com carefully. All of your questions are addressed here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
Also, don't forget that souls in heaven are not bound by linear time as we are. They are not hearing "all our prayers at once". Fact is, we don't fully comprehend what it means to be without time. Try to think about it....impossible for us to understand trapped in time as we are. But they are not, nor will we be when we are with God in heaven, God willing.
Also, your question about emailing your entire address book seems a bit silly. Do you really email your whole address book for every request? Or perhaps do you ask some requests of only your closest friend or two friends? Sometimes, when we study the lives of the saints, one or two saints really click with us in some way. It makes sense that some Catholics feel an identification with some saint, perhaps a saint from their own country, with their name, or whose deeds they really identify with.
If you truly are seeking answers, I'd suggest searching more carefully next time. They are out there and easy to access.
Posted by: Jill (colicmommy) | November 22, 2007 8:36 PM
barbara,
I'm sure you are the same barbara that we all know and love. I'm glad you are happy and feeling closer to God. It really doesn't make any difference to me but I am looking forward to your blog getting back to mommy stuff. you have such a wealth of knowledge to share no matter what religion you are. I have to say I am surprised that people care so much. I care because you are happy and it's nice for you to share your life with us but as for all this hub bub, it is surprising. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, I don't mean it like that at all!!
how's Hattie's health?
Looking forward to hearing about thanksgiving with your huge gang.
janet
Posted by: janet | November 22, 2007 9:10 PM
Barbara, I am reading your series with great interest as I contemplate my own life. I LOVE Proverb 3: 5-6 :)
I am on my own spiritual journey right now, that is a bit different from yours.....but your TRUST in God is what inspires me. God asked me to trust him with something many months ago.......The other night I woke up thinking about all that is happening and just saying " I trust you Jesus" over and over in my mind.....Sometimes I just have to say it because otherwise it feels like I am just hanging on by a thread.......But I trust God more than I did a year ago, I trust him to lead me down unknown paths......I trust him even if I don't get everything *I* wanted out of this life, because ultimately, it's NOT about me........
Anyway-thanks for the inspiration, and I'm very sorry to hear about how you are being treated.
Posted by: Lisa | November 22, 2007 9:15 PM
I'm sorry, too, Barbara, about the horrible legalistics people try to drag others through. It makes me nauseated thinking that there is a blog out there who has labeled people as "heading into mischief"(etc) or whatever that was. How SAD! How limiting of God's grace. We left a church that paralleled Doug Philip's "beliefs," and when we were finally lead away from it, we had to stop referring to it by its name, "Grace Church." There was no grace, just as there is no grace coming from too many commenters here.
I, for one, am thrilled to learn that there are people who don't believe in th 5S's. I have been struggling with that for a year now, but never knew what to do with my seemingly blasphemous thoughts.
Thank you, Barbara, for your transparency. I hope you don't regret it. And again, I'm sorry for the others' attacks.
Posted by: bonnie | November 22, 2007 10:40 PM
Well, Barbara, when I saw your name on the list alongside of mine, I declared it to be an honor!
Have a blessed day of giving thanks to the Lord, for HE is GOOD!
Posted by: thatmom | November 22, 2007 11:08 PM
I don't know the traditions and what I'm supposed to do in a service. Can I really just walk into a Catholic church? Happy Thanksgiving and God bless.
Dawn, you may walk into any Catholic church for Mass, and may participate in (or observe) the entire Mass up to communion, in which you won't be allowed to participate until you are Catholic.
If you have questions about the Catholic faith, you can sign up for RCIA (rite of Christian initiation for adults). This is a series of classes required of those who are heading toward acceptance into the Catholic church, but is also useful for those who are just curious. There is no obligation, and you can quit at any time.
Posted by: Tony | November 22, 2007 11:14 PM
Welcome home from another convert.
Posted by: Jeff Miller | November 22, 2007 11:52 PM
Barbara,
The last few days, after reading your posts in this series, I have felt really inspired to once again consider a conversion of my own. For a couple of years now my husband and I have seriously considered becoming Orthodox. We see it much the same way you view Catholicism. Honestly, I just have a hard time justifying to myself being a member of a group that has broken away from a group that has broken away from a group that has broken away from the church when I believe we should all be one Body.
I would really like to hear more about how this is working with your husband staying in the Evangelical church. While the move to Orthodoxy was originally my husband's idea, he hasn't really done anything about it. I'd like to move forward, but I don't want to "leave him behind," if you understand. I'm considering going to church with my family on Sundays, and Vespers on Saturday nights, but I don't want to cut into dh's going out. (And both churches have service at the same time on Sunday mornings.) Any advice in that area?
Posted by: Michelle Potter | November 22, 2007 11:57 PM
Happy Thanksgiving!
What a wonderful post to share on this wonderful holiday.
Welcome to Catholicism. As a revert myself (I returned to Catholicism as a 30 year old after being raised Catholic) I know the criticism can be difficult. Be strong, keep blogging! You are a wonderful voice here on the internet!
Danielle
Posted by: Barbara | November 23, 2007 12:17 AM
In some ways, I find this so similar to my experiences when I became Orthodox. What was funny was that people know so little about Eastern Orthodoxy that they didn't have many of the resistances that they do to Catholicism. And some Orthodox beliefs are even more, well, foreign than Catholics (although we don't believe in an Immaculate Conception or Papal Infallibility, among other things)! But I certainly have had people challenge me on things such as veneration of the saints and icons (we Orthodox do love our saints and icons!) and the Eucharist. At this point, I don't usually have discussions with people who just want to argue. I don't need to defend 1500-2000 years of church practice to someone who believes that church is whatever he wants it to be and if he doesn't like it, he'll start his own church. LOL!
Obviously, not everyone is like that. People do have genuine questions and concerns. But sometimes it is hard to have a productive discourse when one's starting bases are so different, isn't it?
I've loved reading about your journey. And honestly, I am so happy that it's leading to the Catholic Church. You're halfway to being Orthodox! Just kidding. Sort of. :) You have a special place in my heart and I'm very happy for you.
I hope you had a blessed Thanksgiving.
Posted by: Lucy | November 23, 2007 12:38 AM
Barbara,
Kudos to you! The whole "wolf in sheep's clothing" is a ridiculous lie made by a coward who cannot contact, in person, those they accuse.
"I'm sorry, but it's these personality-driven ministries that believers need to be skeptical of. "
You are quite correct.
I grew up Catholic and I notice that those who criticize the Catholic church for having a pope are many times the people who go to churches with their own little "popes" who speak infallibly.
In the 24 years I spent in the Catholic church, I never had to deal with the things I have dealt with in the 18 years I have been out.
I am tired of all the schismatic leaders running around acting as if they are infallible and above being held accountable for their teachings. There is no hierarchy in these systems for the self-proclaimed leaders but those at the top expect everyone to be subject to their own "authority" and teachings.
So, I do understand why you would be looking into these other avenues. (I haven't read about your journey and your opinions on the 5 Solas but I will do that tonight.)
Posted by: Corrie | November 23, 2007 12:50 AM
Barbara,
I'm so sorry to hear about those branding you, and agree with how wrong some evangelicals are in their legalism, "personality driven" ministries, shallowness, or whatever. Wherever you find God working, you will find satan's expert counterfeit works right there with them, whether in a Catholic church or in a protestant. I do wholeheartedly support you as you follow where God leads.
Do you realize, though, that you have responded in kind, making blanket statements that characterize all evangelicals with the ugliest qualities and practices to be found there? You may not really mean them as universal, but that is how they are received, especially by those with an "us vs. them" mentality looking to discredit the other side. How is this different from those who make blanket statements about Catholicism as a whole based on the negative things found there? I realize that you are under attack from some, but it doesn't give you the right to respond with counter-attack that ignores the collateral damage.
This broad statement, in particular, is so ugly and wounding:
"But there is an element of faith Protestants forget - and that is the spiritual experience of knowing God."
Really?? That's a pretty broad and authoritative-sounding statement you've made to a large number of people, and quite a picture you've painted for all of those Catholics looking on from their stance. Anyone looking to lump all evangelicals into one inferior mold, will delight to latch onto that statement.
Do you really mean Protestants as a whole? Or do you mean the sampling you've come into contact with in your own life experience, and by your own personal judgement? Wow. And this cannot be said of any significant number of Catholics?
I've had a good amount of experience with Catholic folks and worship. If I were to presume to make such statements as yours based on the experiences I've had, I could paint a very ugly picture. It would not be hard at all to put on Pharisee blinders and make statements that lump all Catholics together in the same ugly pot and wound those to whom they do not apply, and even feel justified in doing it, given the huge incidence of these negative things that I've seen and experienced.
**Instead, I choose to realize that wherever you find God's REAL you will assuredly find satan's COUNTERFEIT right alongside it. I do not call those things I see Catholicism, I call them satan's counterfeit for the true worship God intended in His church. I realize that only God knows the heart and that any judgements I try to make about a person's spiritual experience of knowing God will likely be full of error, so I'd best give people the benefit of the doubt.**
I don't think that this or any of the other broad statements about evangelicals as a whole written here are helpful in any way for ushering in grace, truth, understanding, or reconciliation.
Posted by: Marian | November 23, 2007 1:40 AM
Barbara,
I appreciate you confirming that you no longer believe in the five solas...that helps us to understand where your heart is at with the theology issue.
I also thank you for allowing the theology discussion to take place on your blog, despite the fact that you haven't wanted to participate in it. I've learned a lot about Catholicism through this discussion, and--better yet--am inspired to study into all these things even further!
I agree with you about personality-driven ministries. I am generally very skeptical of them. There are a few ministries that I've grown to trust after years of exposure and watching how they operate and what they teach, but you're so right that we should be very careful about who we choose to listen to. My most important personal criterion is that a good ministry should be OPEN about what they believe, and should encourage every teaching to be held up to and examined in the objective light of Scripture. They should encourage, not discourage, each believer to be a Berean. (Of course, that's coming from a Sola Scriptura perspective, so others here might have different criterion;o)
Thanks again!
Posted by: Erin | November 23, 2007 4:39 AM
Dear Marian -
Thanks for the reminder to be more careful with my words. You made a broad and sweeping generalization of your own - about my making broad and sweeping generalizations :)
On the one specific you mentioned - I went back and inserted the word "many" so that the sentence reads:
"But there is an element of faith many Protestants forget - and that is the spiritual experience of knowing God."
I think that makes it right. I read through this piece and found nothing else that was a sweeping generalization. I find things that might create discomfort in Protestants/Evangleicals who may be hearing these ideas for the first time.
But that's a job God gives some communicators in His kingdom. I'll never tire of repeating my favorite G. K. Chesterton quote (though many Evangelicals love him, he was a Catholic):
The purpose of Christianity is to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comforted.
There has been some edgy discussion here. One comment concerning John MacArthur crossed the line and I should have asked the writer to rewrite it before publishing it, but now I can't find it. I'm sorry for the hurt that caused.
However, I do see that the bashing and mischaracterization does not come from Catholics - who seem relatively secure in their faith (and when I make statements like that, I'm referring to Catholics who have a real, vibrant relationship with Christ)- but is most often directed toward Catholics by Protestants. Again, let me ask you all to reflect on the nature of Protestantism - that it is built on a model of protest and schism. You don't like something - you start a new denomination. Or a non-denomination.
But I agree with Corrie about the picture of the little popes. I don't see God glorified in that. I see a trap which has led countless thousands of men into sin - and I'm not talking about the big sins they get "caught" in. I'm talking about pride.
Posted by: barbara | November 23, 2007 7:48 AM
Welcome to the Church, Barbara!
Nice blog you have you here; I'll have to check it out in greater depth.
Posted by: Paul, Just This Guy, You Know? | November 23, 2007 8:22 AM
Barbara,
One more thing I am thankful for... this blog. Barbara, you are doing a tremendous amount of good by being open and obedient in the discernment of God's will.
It's one thing to listen to God, it's quite another to follow.
I was reading to my children about St. Joan of Arc. Among the many things in her life that stand out, one grabbed me in particular. After saving France and after the coronation of Charles, she begged the Dauphin to send her back to her hometown, " And now that Joan had fulfilled all her mission, obeyed all the commands that God had given her, she earnestly besought Charles to let her return to her home to the sweet simplicity of her early life, for in all she had done she had no smallest thought of reward or self-glorification, but only of simple devotion to God and to France. The Dauphin however would not now let her go. He commanded her to remain at the head of his army. At this a great indecision came upon Joan. Against her judgment she obeyed him, and from the moment of her yielding to his will ( the Dauphin's), instead of to her own inner counselor (God), her Voices deserted her;her inspiration fled. Her path from now on was the sad downward path of defeat."
-how much joy we will find in God, if we would just obey, and not turn away from his promptings.
Keep on the journey God is taking you.
Love,
Liz in D.C.
P.S. before St. Joan died, God in his goodness comforted her, by letting her hear his voice again.
Posted by: Liz in D.C. | November 23, 2007 12:01 PM
Thanks for the correction. : )
From memory, I guess I was also thinking of the statement about evangelicals as a whole "throwing out" kneeling in worship,as if no one does it, and almost as if it were somehow decided that it is a distasteful practice. And the one about the entire "world of Evangelicalism" being "personality driven." Some evangelical believers and their leaders, particularly the immature (whose counterparts within Catholicism you are not choosing to use for comparison), may get caught into a guru mentality, no doubt. Pride and idolatry are buggers for all of us, and I think we'll continue to see a plentiful variety of manifestations everywhere we go. But, the last time I checked, the "personality" driving evangelical Christianity is still Jesus. I may enjoy a Beth Moore or Elizabeth Elliot devotional study, and speak well of their God-given gifts in writing, but only because of their effectiveness in pointing me to Jesus and moving me more into His presence.
The statement about the whole thing being based on schism, though partly true, has a similar air about it. Didn't it all start with the REFORMation? Didn't Martin Luther, a Catholic monk, first try to address and reform extremely valid concerns (the abusive and utterly wrong practice of selling indulgences, and so forth) within the Church before he was forced to take it outside?
I definitely do agree that there is a segment of evangelicals (again, possibly with a larger proportion of less mature believers) with a consumer or "country club" mentality about church, as well as one with a certain legalism that breeds pride and schism. I've seen it (As a 100% human, I would never claim to be 100% above it, either.) But I've also seen thousands of Christians planting their feet in Jesus and the local assembly He's led them to, worshipping together, and working through it all.
At the risk of sounding prideful-- bragging is emphatically not my purpose here-- let me share this: I am so blessed to be a part of a Protestant church that, by all formulas and conventional wisdom, should not be thriving where it is, to the extreme that it is, and it is by God's grace and for His glory alone. Our leadership and members have sought God, not church growth or any name for themselves. It is an inner-city, multi-racial, economically and culturally diverse church, with little parking and not enough space (some closets have been in use as offices, we're spread across several buildings now, and facilities are often in use nearly 24/7, so it's not for lack of stewardship).
Known just 25 years ago as a racist congregation that was dwindling and graying, God now uses the body of several thousand people for the salvation and discipleship of many, to sharpen each other against the sharp points our diversity brings,and to wholistically minister in hundreds of significant ways in the local city neighborhood and way beyond. A couple of years ago, God miraculously provided means of expanding facilities within the cramped city area. Yet no one felt the "go ahead" to proceed with a long hoped for and much needed expansion. Rather, God has shown that he has much more work to do within our hearts to prepare us for even greater work that He'll require with the additional space someday, and we are waiting and listening in obedience.
My point in sharing all of that is just this: To put it plainly, this is not a convenient, comfortable church to belong to in any way, shape or form! The afflicted are comforted and the comforted are afflicted. Here and there, people do leave. But so many, many more have come and stayed, rolled up their sleeves, and listened for God's voice, for His purposes and glory. Ours is not, by any stretch, the only Protestant church like this. I trust that you know this. Getting afflicted when you're comforted, and having to think. Yeah, that's a good thing. The Holy Spirit has a pretty big role there, of course. But I still think you've become pretty sweeping about it, which also feeds the negative seeds on "the other side." Ohhhh... aaaagghhh... I'm done!
I'm glad that you are a sister in Christ, that you know God, and that you have the courage to follow where He leads you.
I think I'm looking forward to talking about something else!
Posted by: marian | November 23, 2007 3:01 PM
I have thought for a long time that you shared your wisdom because you have a good heart. I still think you have a good heart. However, I have found lately that it seems you have a attitude that everyone is out to get you, that you are constantly being prejudiced against because you have a large family, have adopted children, have minority children, were fat, and now, are converting to Catholic. Believe it or not, everyone experiences prejudices for one reason or another. It seems you draw the attention to it though. I also felt sad that you were converting, not because I hate Catholics; for both sides of my family is Catholic and I know some beautiful Catholic people. I felt sad because I believed it to be wrong, but as I tell my daughter, you have to stand before Christ. This is your walk to take. It seems you have left your husbands side to do as you wish but that is your choice too. My problem is that you are one of "those" people that you say do not accept everyone unless they "toes the line". Is it right that we all should have to say that you are good and righteous to follow your heart when we believe otherwise? You are name calling just as you are saying others are doing to you. As much as I have respected you in the past, I have come to see that you love to fight and provoke people in the name of "understanding one another". As I see it, it is all a cover for the enemy's work to be done. I love you as a sister in Christ and I plead with you to search your heart on this issue. And I don't mean the Catholicism issue only, I mean the dividing people, stirring up trouble and casting people away because they don't agree with you.
I will be praying for you. And I do still love you.
Posted by: christian faith | November 26, 2007 1:01 AM
Wow, "christian faith" -
Thanks for sharing what you really think.
Here are a few ideas to ponder:
Writers are meant to provoke. That's our calling. Through our lives and experience, nonfiction writers reveal what is going on in the lives of others around them which they might otherwise be blind to (fiction writers do this too, but not in a personally revealing way). By being transparent, we also encourage others who are struggling that they are not alone.
It is isn't an easy task to make oneself vulnerable to potshots from strangers who somehow come away from the experience of reading your words feeling smug and superior. It's really a writer's personal cross.
In this case, not only do I try to take care of the tasks God has given me - raising disabled kids and all that entails, including advocating for their needs - but I write about it to encourage mothers in the same predicament and to enlighten those who are prejudiced, ignorant or oblivious. Then I am condemned from someone like you who misunderstands how this kind of forum helps build bridges of understanding.
Likewise, I shared my journey from being fat to encourage others. When we share our struggles with those things that hold us in bondage, we are helping in Jesus' work - to set the captives free. I never whined about others being prejudiced against fat people - someone else brought that up. I am all about personal responsibility.
I shared my conversion not expecting the outcry that has followed. You might consider that my sharing my story does not cause the division - it reveals the division and prejudice that's already there. God has a purpose in revealing it: so that we might try to see it from his point of view, not our own.
And btw, I have not "left my husband's side" but am continuing to go to church with my family (although I stayed home yesterday with sick kids :), as well as cooking, cleaning and sharing the same bed. What a strange thing to say! I am not commenting on where my husband is on all this because it is up to him when he wants to share. When he does, I will print it here. Actually, maybe I'll ask him to write something now, so watch for it.
If I come across to you as someone who does not accept others unless they toe the line, I am sorry. And I will watch my words because as I tell every group I speak to I share my ideals to give people something to reach for, but ideals should lift you up, not weigh you down. I am honest to let people know I don't always live up to my own ideals. But I do so believe it is important for us to have them.
The one thing I really have a problem with is prejudice. I always have. Just like my desire to be a mother, it is something God built deep inside of me. He also gave me a crusader-type personality. He also made me a writer. What you see here is the outcome of things he set in motion in me from the beginning.
I'm not sure why you're saying I cast people away. But I would urge you - if my writing stirs up such animosity and ill will - not to read it any more. Go where God leads you and be blessed.
I always find it odd when people write something filled with animosity and then say "I will be praying for you. And I still love you." In this case the "praying for you" subtext is that I am a wicked sinner (in your words "a cover for the enemy's work"). And the "I do still love you" kind of cleans up the mess after you rip me to shreds. Aren't words wonderful?
Posted by: barbara | November 26, 2007 5:57 AM
Why can my letter not rebuke without it being filled with animosity? I do not hate you. I think that you are wrong but I don't hate you. Do you not think that a person can disagree with you and still care? I did not write that I love you because I was trying to clean up a mess but because I wanted you to know that I do love you. It doesn't matter though. Whatever I would have written, if it disagreed with you, would have been taken as a insult. You are no different than those church leaders that you claim are cult like. The only difference is that some of these men are truly Christian men, despite the nonsense that is written about them. The results are in the fruit so just wait and see. I for one will continue to read Doug Phillips, Jennie Chauncey and the other ladies that you feel are out to get you now. I read because I see their words as truth and I do not believe yours to be the truth anymore.
Whatever happens, when you are standing before Christ, you know that this is the road you decided to take. The few brave souls that didn't toe the line and tried to share our hearts with you will grieve for our loss but what is really sad is that in the end, you may have lost the most.
Seek His Truth. Do not rely on your feelings to lead you but His Word, the Holy Bible.
Posted by: christian faith | November 26, 2007 8:30 AM
I am very busy trying to provide for our family, so I will make this a short message to feed the blogbeast....
Barbara has not left my side, nor is she alone in her journey. We are in a continual dialogue, as we have been since we first met over 25 years ago. I fully support her as I always have in the quest and battleground of faith, truth,and justice.
Thank God for people like her who aren't afraid to pursue God's calling wherever it takes them......
Do you think God doesn't love Catholics....only Protestant Evangelicals? Let's not be reluctant Jonahs, hypocritical Pharisees,or the bitter older brother of the Prodigal. Certainly the Catholic church has had its problems as have numerous Protestant Evangelical churches...It's bound to happen wherever Men are involved.
Let's examine our own hearts......how can we be the effective universal Body of Christ serving our Lord in this world if we don't open the doors to unify the body of believers in all the denominations?
Let's remember that Jesus didn't say, I'm going to build one church and then after a number of centuries I want you to schism into thousands of other denominations that all think they have the only truth. If we can agree on the essentials...as laid down in the Gospels...John 3:16....and that "faith without works is dead"James 2....we should be able to love each other.
After all, one of Dr Dobson's best friends and longtime co-laborer in doing our Father's work is Chuck Colson, an Episcopalian whose wife is Roman Catholic. Obviously both men are followers of Christ and are not only working together...but they love each other.
I think this brief description and statement by Chuck presents the case well:
Chuck Colson, popular evangelical author and founder of Prison Fellowship, is entirely given over to ecumenical relationships with Rome. Colson is a Southern Baptist but his wife is a practicing Roman Catholic (who teaches Sunday School in a Southern Baptist church), and he attends Mass with her at times.More than 70 percent of Colson’s Prison Fellowship chaplains are Roman Catholic (Calvary Contender, Nov. 15, 1999).
In February 1977 Colson told the 35th annual convention of the National Association of Evangelicals:
“I’m not certain that I have any convictions other than one, that [we must end] ... the divisions which have separated the believers historically and have weakened the impact of Christianity on 20th Century America. ... You know, I am in a very ecumenical position. I’m an Episcopalian. I love to go to Baptist churches nearby, particularly one Baptist church where the pastor is on the board of Prison Fellowship Foundation. My wife was Roman Catholic when I was converted, and she’s remained in her church, organizing a little Bible study. ... we must seek a fresh unity of spirit and A HEALING OF THE DIVISIONS which many historians write has crippled the impact of Christianity...”
Love to you all and looking forward to Heaven where I think some folks will be surprised at who is there.
Tripp
Posted by: Tripp | November 26, 2007 9:20 PM
Hi Barbara, I find myself thinking about your joy in finding a closer relationship with Christ within the Catholic church. I grew up in a Baptist church, but I have no problems with my sisters and brothers who speak in tongues, or believe in infant Baptism, or literal translation. Their was one cross, one crusificion, and one resurrection. I have always had a deep respect for Catholics because they acted on what they believed. My nephew who is getting ready for his first communion has asked my sister if I could be his god-mother. I am so touched, but since I am not Catholic they don't think it will be possible. I am thinking about a dual membership. I think if more Christians would take a step toward reconciling with our Catholic heritage, we may realize that we are one family with the same Father.
Posted by: Marci | November 27, 2007 2:34 AM
