May 22, 2008 6:49 PM
Sect children's seizure overruled by Texas Appeals Court
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Yes!
Posted by: Julana | May 22, 2008 7:54 PM
Thank goodness! My husband and I have been waiting on someone to come to their senses in this case. A lot of the supposed "teenage mothers" have been reclassified as adults as their ages have been proven, and while the media vilifies this community, it seems the actual rate of abuse is lower than the general population.
"Of the 31 people the state initially said were underage mothers, 15 have been reclassified as adults, and one is 27."
I have to wonder how their ages were initially determined. Was it by how old they look? If so, I'd probably have been lumped in as a teen mother since I still get carded buying my husband cigarettes. (I'm 27.)
Of course any child actually being abused needs and deserves help, but it's ridiculous to take away the children of an entire community because of the problems of a few.
"Five judges in San Angelo, about 40 miles north of Eldorado, have been holding hearings on what the parents must do to regain custody."
So backwards. They ought to have first held hearings on what parents must have done to lose custody.
Posted by: Michelle Potter | May 22, 2008 8:15 PM
The whole thing seemed very German to me. The German government currently will take your children away from you if you homeschool. During the Nazi era, they took children away from the parents of "enemies of the state."
There was no due process here. It was downright un-American.
Posted by: Amy K. | May 22, 2008 11:35 PM
Yes, it is wonderful news.
We've been foster parents for years and I just cringed when I heard those poor children were going into the system. They will be changed forever. They've been so sheltered (nothing inherently wrong with that) and then exposed so brutally to the "world", it makes me wonder which abuse was worse. Actually I don't wonder. The removals will have much more devastating consequences.
I'm praying those kids get back home quickly. I've seen kids returned to much worse (much, much worse) situations. This whole mess reveals a blatant disregard for the rights of both the parents and children as well as a condescending air of moral superiority on the part of the state.
Posted by: Lynette | May 23, 2008 12:28 AM
I might have agreed with you if I had not read the book Escape. If the environment they were living in is as bad as the author describes in that book then I believe the children being taken was probably for the best. The level of neglect and severe brainwashing they are subjected to is heartbreaking.
Posted by: paigeu | May 23, 2008 1:18 AM
Pardon my ignorance in many of the American social issues (I'm Mexican) and also my bluntness, but I must ask:
* why is it that we defend marriage as an institution between ONE man and ONE woman, and we seem to be ok with the notion of ONE man and SEVERAL women, many of them underage?
* why is it that many 20 somethings (or even younger) get sent to jail and their records tarnished forever with the "child predator" title for having s*x with their underage girlfriends, and we are somehow ok with much more older man having sex with underage girls. Wouldn't this be considered statutory rape outside a polygamist compound?
For some reason I can't stop thinking about that.
That being said, I am very happy to hear that the little ones are coming back to their mothers. I wish, however, that we would be really open to what the "insiders" (who are now outsiders) had to say about it, and rally stand up against this kind of discrimination, abuse, neglect, brainwashing, etc... against these women and children.
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. I just want to understand this: when we are dealing with same sex marriage, with underage sexual relations, with teen pregnancies, we hear about it in all the conservative programs, internet sites, blogs....everywhere. And yet, when this story broke out, most of those sites and tv programs were rather silent or slow to address the issue. Is it because that is considered a "religion"? Is there something I'm not seeing or understanding?
Again, take what I say with a pinch of salt; you must know that up until a few years ago I did not know that there were such things as "polygamist compounds"; and up until three weeks ago, I had never heard of a group called "La familia" that, according to some of the kids that were able to get out, sexually and psychologically abused kids very early in life.
I'm sorry about my ramblings; there are so many things in my head is hard for me to put all my thoughts in order and express myself more clearly.
Posted by: LadyLovas | May 23, 2008 11:50 AM
LadyLovas, I didn't quite understand what you meant in your post.
why is it that we defend marriage as an institution between ONE man and ONE woman, and we seem to be ok with the notion of ONE man and SEVERAL women, many of them underage?
Who is the "we" you are talking about? The people here on Mommylife? Christians in general? Americans?
why is it that many 20 somethings (or even younger) get sent to jail and their records tarnished forever with the "child predator" title for having s*x with their underage girlfriends, and we are somehow ok with much more older man having sex with underage girls. Wouldn't this be considered statutory rape outside a polygamist compound?
Again, who's the "we"? I personally don't agree with polygamy. I don't think very young girls should be getting married to older men.
But that is a completely separate issue from children being taken from their parents with no due process and no prior investigation into abuse in each specific case.
I don't think the government should be able to just come in and take someone's children away on the "suspicion" that something "might" be happening. No one would be safe.
Posted by: Amy K. | May 23, 2008 12:51 PM
Yes Amy, I'll try to be more clear.
When I say "we" I mean mainly "we" as a society in general. "We" as Christians.
I gues a better way to put it would be "why is marriage defended as the union between ONE man and ONE woman, but you hear little against polygamy".
When we as a society defend marriage, what is it that we defend exactly. The ONE and ONE or the man and woman part. I personally believe it should be both, just as strongly. I personally believe that marriage is not only for one MAN and one WOMAN, but also for ONE man and ONE woman.
I have asked other Christian people and I haven't got a stright answer. The Bible talks about polygamy, but is it also Biblically ok for today. Should we as christians publically speak against it or not.
And the same thing goes for the underage s*x that suppossedly goes on in these polygamist circles. If we as a society are prompt to condone it when it happens, how is it that some how we don't hear a public outcry when it comes to plygamists.
(And I know that not all plygamist are the same. I'm just refering to the case at hand)
The reason why I ask this is not to create division; I was confronted with those questions about two weeks ago by an in-law who is very skeptical of organized religion and somehow I did not know how to answer. I know what I believe, but somehow, the way she put it, it wasn't enogh.
And I agree 100% with the original post by Barbara: I don't think that it was right for the government to come in and just take the children away; I personally believe that there should have been a deep investigation before all those kids where taken from their mothers; I have prayed many days for protection for them; I think it has to be a very devastating thing to suddenly be separated from everything you ever knew, and be thrown into a culture and a society of wich you know nothing about. My heart shrinks just thinking about the sheer pain and fear they must have felt, not knowing if they would be reunited with their mothers or not.
Anyway, I'm just trying to understand the implications of the whole case from a Christian view point. Sorry if I am not explaining myself in an understandable way. I have a hard time understanding it myself.
Posted by: LadyLovas | May 23, 2008 2:28 PM
Actually, in the United States, that's one of the arguments against gay marriage. If you redefine marriage from one man and one woman to any other combination thereof, why would it stop there? Wouldn't polygamists then argue for their right to be married as well?
Gay marriage supporters say that's ridiculous, but I think they're ridiculous for not realizing that "poly" groups (of which there is a growing number in the US) would immediately sue for their right to marry.
Posted by: Amy K. | May 23, 2008 5:39 PM
If anyone's interested in further thoughts on this, an excellent article written today by Mike Gallagher about the outcome of this case:
Posted by: Amy K. | May 23, 2008 6:20 PM
This is an interview with the writer of the book Escape.
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=42627&cat=14
Posted by: paigeu | May 24, 2008 9:36 AM
paigeu, what do you think should have been done with the children?
Posted by: Amy K. | May 24, 2008 12:45 PM
I am not disagreeing with the ruling, because I don't know enough details...but I am willing to give the people who okayed the seizure the benefit of the doubt and assume their motives were right.
Basically, what I see happening in the blogosphere is a knee-jerk reaction to assume that this cult isn't that dangerous, and that this whole seizure thing was just a bunch of liberals trying to overstep their bounds. I don't believe that at all. I think the authorities involved took those kids because they know what happens behind closed doors is terrifying and dehumanizing and they are desperate to save them and end the power these cult leaders have over all these poor women and children's lives.
Posted by: paigeu | May 24, 2008 5:29 PM
Then I think you're arguing against a straw man. I'm sure everyone thinks they had the right motives. But "right motives" is a scary phrase right up there with "good intentions" and "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."
Posted by: Amy K. | May 24, 2008 6:33 PM
I am suggesting that the children are better off out of the cult even if that means foster care. I am not proposing that the court ruling was unjust because I don't know enough details to suggest that. If the abuse the cult perpetrates is as severe as the author suggests though, then foster care is certainly a lesser evil for the children.
My comment was in response to Barbara's sentence saying that the children were not better off...I just meant that I disagree based on my understanding of the cults practices.
Posted by: paigeu | May 24, 2008 9:00 PM
The level of neglect and severe brainwashing they are subjected to is heartbreaking.
Be careful, paigeu. One man's "brainwashing" is another man's "religion".
Posted by: Tony | May 28, 2008 2:41 PM
Actually, in the United States, that's one of the arguments against gay marriage. If you redefine marriage from one man and one woman to any other combination thereof, why would it stop there? Wouldn't polygamists then argue for their right to be married as well?
I don't believe these people really cared whether society at large considered them married or not. I never read that any of them tried to get multiple marriage certificates from the state, or they would have probably been arrested.
However, society at large finds itself in a bit of a pickle. One the one hand it says that you can have any kind of sexual activity you want. So a man shacking up with two women or a harem of women and having sex with any or all of them is not a problem in society.
There is also the problem of allowing a 13 year old girl to consent to an abortion without her parents' permission. How can you say that a girl that young can consent to an abortion and not consent to sex?
I'm not saying that any of those attitudes are moral or correct, but it seems like society at large has sown the wind and is reaping the whilrwind. How can they tell these people they can't "live together" and have sex with whoever they want to?
They have put up with them since 2004 not being able to do anything about them until this bogus "report" came in and CPS swooped in for the "sake of the children".
If I can't see a little more morality from my government, at least I'd like to see a little more consistency.
Posted by: Tony | May 28, 2008 2:48 PM
